Would Harry forgiving Snape be character growth for him? What makes it Snape's Worst Memory?

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 164207

> Magpie:
> Ah, the freedom of those untainted by fandom!:-)

Alla:

It is so fun sometimes :) But in the interest of full disclosure my 
friend also thinks that Dumbledore may have ordered Snape to kill 
him or at least something else will be uncovered about Tower. My 
friend despises Snape, but finds Tower to be suspicious. 

The thing why I can accept my friend's view is because he really 
does not consider DD to be moral compass of Potterverse, so that DD 
could pull stunt like that. Anyways, back to us.

Magpie: 
> But I don't disagree with the fact that just because people can 
change 
> doesn't mean they all do, and I think there's plenty of Slytherins 
(or DEs 
> from other houses) that could have been well on their way at 11. 
<SNIP>> So I don't think Snape's having not changed would be a 
problem in itself. I 
> don't think it's bad of Harry to say, "But what if he hasn't 
changed?"

Alla:

Cool, agreed so far.

Magpie: 
> I'm talking about a slightly different issue about Snape's being 
wrong in 
> the past is *evidence* that he's LV's man now, and that Dumbledore 
must be 
> ignoring this obvious piece of evidence while Harry is not. That's 
the thing 
> that's too negative. <SNIP>.

Alla:

Okay, please, please explain that to me, because I do not 
understand. You agree that some people are just evil, but if Snape 
did not change, it is too negative? How is it too negative?

Magpie:
<SNIP>
 But I think 
> that's why Dumbledore's hinted there's more to it--you have to 
understand 
> Snape's whole situation and what's important to him, and Harry 
doesn't 
> really get all that yet. He doesn't have the information to 
understand 
> Dumbledore's view.

Alla:

You mean additional reason to trust Snape? Sure, that is possibility 
and as I said yes, information is missing, probably, but what if it 
does not, what if Snape deepest remorse was all that there was?


>
> Magpie:
> It's not that, exactly. Lucius Malfoy's a jerk in his private life 
and works 
> for Voldemort. There are not really many pleasant DEs that we've 
met (none 
> that I can think of). But the issue is one having to be linked to 
the 
> others. As Sirius says, the world isn't made up of good guys and 
DEs. 
> Umbridge wasn't a DE, and she's even worse than Snape. Filch isn't 
a DE. All 
> DEs may be unpleasant people, but not all unpleasant people are 
DEs. 
> Regulus actually was a DE, but may turn out to be the first person 
to have 
> tried to do what Harry's trying to do to destroy Voldemort.


Alla:

Oh, man. I do not know what to snip here. Yes, I agree with 
everything you wrote in this paragraph, with absolutely everything.

My problem is what does it have to do with Snape? Why cannot Snape 
NOT change if some of these people different? Did JKR specifically 
say that Snape just has to change? As you said there are many 
unpleasant people who are DE in the books and plenty of people who 
are unpleasant but not DE, so I guess my question is who says that 
Snape necessarily belongs in second category? Does it make sense?

 
> Magpie:
<BIG SNIP>
> It's also wrong-headed to consider someone being unpleasant to you 
> personally as evidence that they must hold certain beliefs that 
are 
> different from yours, because things just don't always work that 
way. Snape 
> could certainly still be LV's man, but his dislike of Harry Potter 
doesn't 
> have to lead to that. It can be an independent part of his 
personality.

Alla:

Mmmmm, see I keep saying yes, to a lot of what you wrote and am 
loosing the gust of our disagreement again. :

I think Harry had seen or learned about things that Snape did that 
are not personal, although they are mixed with personal, I guess and 
that may point to Snape working for LV. How is it wrong to think 
that person who killed DD ( the most significant example) is working 
for Voldemort? It happened outside of the classroom after all.

There are also mixed reasons – like knowing Snape hatred of his 
father and that Voldemort attacked his parents, surely it can be a 
sign that Snape is Voldemort man?

Does that make sense to you?

Snape disliking Harry Potter can absolutely be an independent part 
of his personality, but the fact that Harry is on Voldemort most 
wanted list and Snape dislikes him as well, can point to something 
here IMO.

Like for example if say Hanna Abott said Professor Snape dislikes me 
and he is Voldemort's man, then yes, there would have been a huge 
disconnect for me between two parts of this sentence. But with Harry 
it is a different story, solely because Harry and LV fates are so 
connected ( and thanks to Snape too, aren't that ironic?)

> Magpie:
> Do you mean why do I think it's OOC for DD to fall for a sob 
story? It's not 
> because I think it would be OOC for Dumbledore to be wrong-he's 
been wrong 
> before. It's that I think DD is also shown to be a shrewd judge of 
> character, one who doesn't judge people based on what they say 
about 
> themselves. So if Dumbledore has been wrong about Snape, I think 
he will 
> have been wrong the way he's been about people in the past. He 
won't have 
> been suckered in by what sounds like a transparent act. (It's also 
hard for 
> me to imagine Snape being a great enough actor to pull that feat 
off. I 
> think he's a successful spy on the DEs because it goes more 
naturally with 
> his personality. Most people in these stories are bad actors, 
perhaps so 
> that young readers can see what's going on clearly when they read 
in 
> retrospect. I remember for years people complained that the rare 
times 
> people wrote about Peter they made him too much like the rat he 
turned out 
> to be...and then JKR wrote him the same way in the Pensieve.)
>

Alla:

No, I was asking why you would think that in this instance JKR 
would have to explain how Dumbledore was tricked. It read to me as 
if it would have been DD fault, you know?

And I would never consider it to be DD fault.

Oh, I want to ask you that question for few days, but could not find 
a posy where you said that DD is good at understanding people, so 
thank you for mentioning it here.

Could you give me an examples of where DD was been a shrewd judge of 
character, him  being extremely good at reading people, etc.

Now, I will give you that on the Tower he may have understood Draco 
and  I don't think that is a given either, just the path in that 
direction is open.

But besides that, I remember plenty of examples where DD 
understanding of people really sucked IMO.

Let's see he admits that he forgot how youth feels in OOP as to 
Harry and Sirius, he hoped that Dursleys would treat Harry as their 
son, etc.

Thanks,

Alla