CHAPDISC: HBP 29, The Phoenix Lament

[puduhepa98 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 164224

Nikkalmati:<snipping excellent summary>

1. This chapter is a  nice opportunity for JKR to show us a variety 
of characters' reactions to  the same emotional upheaval - 
Dumbledore's death. Did any of their reactions  particularly inspire 
sympathy in you? Which character reacted most similarly  to you? Is 
that character one you normally sympathise or identify with? 
 
I felt very much for Harry who had to witness the killing and then tried to  
reverse it by chasing after Snape.  He then had to show Hagrid the body and  
tell Hagrid and later everyone else what had happened.  I think we all must  
feel for Harry, as his is the POV we are given.  

2. (Take off your  DDM!Snape hats for this one, please.) In this 
chapter, McGonagall and Tonks  ask the same questions that fans have 
been asking for years, namely: what  did Snape tell Dumbledore to 
make him trust him? Do you think, given Lupin,  McGonagall and 
Tonks's astonishment at Harry's story, that *even if Snape  really 
has* betrayed the Order and rejoined Voldemort, there still must  
have been more than a `tale of remorse' to how he hoodwinked 
Dumbledore?  How do you think ESE!Snape (or similar variants) could 
have convinced him?  What themes that the books have already visited 
would Snape's tale (and the  fact that it was fake) resonate with, 
and how could his ability to fool  Dumbledore reflect upon Harry's 
story?

I think that we are meant to be confused here by Harry's telling everyone  
that Snape felt remorse after the Potters were killed.  Canon tells us  Snape 
had come to DD before the killings.  I would not be surprised if  Snape had been 
remorseful over more that telling the prophesy to LV, but I also  think DD's 
trust depended on all Snape's actions after he was given a second  chance - 
all 16 years of loyalty.  Oh yeah, this is ESE!Snape.  Well,  I think DD would 
accept Snape into the fold on the story that he did not want  the Potters 
killed, but he would keep a close eye on him (just like he did  Tom).  If Snape 
were able to fool DD for all that time, he must be a better  actor than he 
appears to be.  He may be an Occlumens, but he doesn't have  the ability to assume a 
false identity or he would keep his surly self under  cover.  He must also be 
keeping DD from knowing he is using Occlumency  against him while seeing him 
almost every day.  If Snape has deceived DD,  the next book must be going to 
show Harry is wiser than DD and that he has a  sense of who is on his side. 
Remember how he knew right away that Draco was the  wrong sort?  It also means it 
is not a good idea to give people second  chances and that ugly, nasty people 
are probably evil too. <g>
 

3. Assuming Hermione's account of events in Snape's office is  
accurate, what do you make of her and Luna's gullibility? Are you  
annoyed that they didn't realise immediately that Snape had 
stupefied  Flitwick and try to stop him? Since Ron, Neville and Ginny 
weren't much more  use when confronted by the Peruvian Darkness 
Powder, and only made it  through the fight because of the Felix 
Felicis, have your views on how  useful the DA really was changed?
 
I don't find the girls to be gullible.  They were following the  directions 
of a teacher to do something necessary in an emergency.  It  would not have 
been a good idea for them to try to stop Snape in any  case.  We should also see 
this as Felix working to keep them  safe.    

4. What do you make of McGonagall saying (of  Snape) "He must have 
known a spell we didn't […] After all, he was the  Defence against 
the Dark Arts teacher?" We all know Snape had been teaching  potions 
for fifteen years before that, so what do you make of this sudden  
respect for his knowledge of DADA? Do you think the teaching posts  
confer something special on their holders? Does this give us any 
clues  as to why Voldemort particularly wanted to have the DADA job? 
Or do you  think McGonagall could be alluding in some way to the 
curse?

She noted that they could not pass through but Snape could easily.  It  is a 
reasonable assumption that he did it with a spell, although how did he know  
instantly what spell to use?  I think everyone on the faculty knows and  
respects Snape's ability in DADA.  No, I don't think the post itself gives  the 
holder any powers or knowledge.  I thing LV wanted the job because he  wanted to 
be at Hogwarts and knew he was qualified <g>.  I don't see  how MM could be 
talking about the curse.
 

5. Molly doesn't give one single sign that she cares at all that  
Dumbledore's dead, she doesn't react when McGonagall assures Arthur 
that  it's true, nor does she ask Harry or the others if they're all 
right; she  only has eyes for Bill. Do you find that surprising? How 
do you interpret  her different reactions to the dramas at the ends 
of CoS, GoF and HBP, and  how do they reflect upon her assertion in 
OotP that Harry is as good as her  son?
 
It appears Molly and Arthur already had heard that DD was dead before they  
came to the hospital and it is merely confirmed to Arthur.  Molly is  naturally 
concerned with Bill and what can be done for him, before she  reacts to DD's 
death.  I think she does consider Harry her son, but he  doesn't need her now 
as much as Bill does. 

6. In ch5 p92 (UK ed.)  Molly says (of Bill and Fleur) "It was the 
same last time he was powerful,  people eloping right left and 
centre –" yet Lupin seems here to be an  exception, holding out 
against this all-too-human reaction in times of war.  Do you find 
this consistent with his character? Given the close friends he  has 
lost, do you understand him wanting to keep Tonks at arm's length,  
or do you agree with Molly that he's being ridiculous? How does his  
behaviour regarding Tonks compare with Harry's later break-up with  
Ginny?
 
I do think Lupin considers himself unfit for Tonks (and maybe he is  right).  
We haven't seen how Tonks fell for Lupin or how long they have  been 
together.  It seems precipitous and unwise to me too.  However,  it is consistent with 
Lupin's character to isolate himself.  I do see a  parallel with Harry and 
Ginny in that both Lupin and Harry want to keep their  girlfriends from harm.  
However, Lupin is protecting Tonks from himself or  the consequences of being 
involved with a werewolf.  I don't think either  Tonks or Ginny will go along 
with it.

7. Do you think that the fact that  Dumbledore's portrait is sleeping 
peacefully and looking untroubled is  significant? If so, what do you 
think it signifies, and if JKR had wanted to  signify the opposite, 
how do you think she would have done it? 
 
Yes, it is emphasized that DD's portrait is peaceful.  I think if she  wanted 
the opposite to be true, she would not have shown a  portrait. 

. What do you make of McGonagall's statement about  closing the 
school: "… I must say that Professor Dumbledore's murder is more  
disturbing to me than the idea of Slytherin's monster living 
undetected  in the bowels of the castle…" Do you find this statement 
surprising? Do you  agree with it? Do you think it might reflect the 
fact that she was a student  at Hogwarts the first time the Chamber 
opened? Do you think it reflects  JKR's opinion?
 
I do find it reasonable that a murder of one of the faculty by another is  
more disturbing.  It is more unexpected and contrary to the social  order.  A 
basilisk can be expected to kill and once it is dead it is gone,  but the 
treachery inherent in this murder is more unanticipated and cannot be  put to rest 
easily.

9. What do you make of Slughorn's reaction to  Dumbledore's death, 
his shock at Snape's culpability, his ambivalence about  the school 
reopening, and his seeming reluctance that the students should  stay 
for the funeral? How does this compare with his manner with  
Dumbledore in chapter four? If the school reopens, do you think he 
will  stay on as potions master and head of Slytherin, and do you 
think  Dumbledore's death will affect his decision?
 
I thought it was an interesting revelation of Slughorn's character and a  
twist on what every one else is saying.  Instead of saying I should have  known 
(or in Harry's case I really did know all along), Slughorn is revealing  that 
he had a very different view of Snape.  I think Slughorn is shaken  because he 
has a high opinion of his ability to evaluate people.

10. Do  you think Harry was right not to tell McGonagall where he 
went with  Dumbledore? Would you have had the courage (or 
stubbornness) to do the same  at his age? Do you think that he did 
what Dumbledore would have wanted?  McGonagall will almost certainly 
ask Dumbledore's portrait where he took  Harry when it wakes up; what 
do you think it will tell her? Since all the  portraits are sworn to 
help the current head, do you think they will tell  her about the 
horcruxes? If they refused, do you think she has the potential  to 
turn into an Umbridge, or worse?
 
After reading the comments, I agree he was reasonable not to open up to her  
right away.  At first, I thought he was being arrogant, but now I think  
cautious is a better word.  At his age I would have told her everything,  unless I 
had a reason to suspect her.  I think we will see that Harry  continues to be 
loyal to DD through thick and thin and that it turns out to be  the right 
path.  I have no doubt DD will put MM off with some misdirection  and soft 
comments.  I am not sure how much the portraits know about  horcruxes.  Would DD have 
let them know?  Does MM know the portraits  can talk?  The portraits will 
certainly wait until MM is confirmed to  consult with her.  No, if she is not ESE 
already, she will not become an  Unbridge.

11. Do you find it surprising that McGonagall didn't ask how  Harry & 
co. knew that Malfoy was in the room of requirement? Harry  didn't 
tell her what he knows about the Unbreakable Vow either (despite the  
fact that it didn't have anything to do with the Horcruxes). Do you  
think she will find out, and if she did how do you think she would  
react? What story about Malfoy and Snape should Harry be able to 
piece  together from the information he has?

At that point, I don't think she would ask.  That is past and in the  
circumstances she has much more on her mind.  I think she and Harry will  have more 
discussions, but Harry will not reveal anything to anyone that they  don't need 
to know in order to help him.  She may find out, and in that  case, she will 
probably see it as a reason for Snape to kill DD.  I do not  think Harry will 
reflect very deeply on the relationship between Malfoy and  Snape under the 
circumstances.  He will certainly see them as partners in  crime and believe 
that Snape will use his influence to confirm Draco as a  DE.  Draco is lost, in 
Harry's POV, if he goes with  Snape// 

12. Hagrid is inconsolable; did you find his reaction to  
Dumbledore's death moving? We don't get to see what he thinks of 
Snape's  apparent treachery, do you think this omission is 
conspicuous? Hagrid  insists that he's staying whether the school 
opens or not, because Hogwarts  is his home, even though his hut has 
just been burned down. Do you think he  only wants to stay because of 
Grawp, or do you think he might have another  reason that we don't 
know about? 
 
Yes, I was moved, but I do think his lack of comment on Snape is  telling.  I 
don't know if he has been given a role to play by DD, is that  what you mean? 
 I think he is one of those who will keep DD from ever truly  leaving 
Hogwarts, because he is one of those loyal to DD.

13. McGonagall  will refer the decision to close the school to the 
governors; do you think  that we have any canon to go on in guessing 
whether Hogwarts will reopen or  not? Do you think that JKR ought to 
tell us one way or another before book  7?


I suspect the school will remain open, even if the Trio is not in  
attendance, just to that all the other student and the faculty can be available  for 
plot purposes.  I would really hate to not see any more of the  school.  It is 
almost a character in itself.

14. Do you find any of the characters' reactions to Dumbledore's  
death suspicious? Do you think that we may find out something in 
book 7  which will make us view this hospital-wing scene in a 
different light (even  if you can't imagine what it is yet)?
 
I am sure when we look back we will see something suspicious that we should  
have noticed.  I think we did not see a lot of what must have gone on  between 
DD's death and the funeral.  The hospital scene is just the first  reaction 
and we did not see anything from Flitwick and not much from  Hagrid.   BTW 
where is Trelawney?

15. Did it surprise you that  there was no mention of the 
Headmasters' and Headmistresses' portraits'  reactions to McGonagall 
asking where Harry went with Dumbledore? They've  often been vocal in 
the past when Harry and Dumbledore were alone together;  is their 
silence in this scene conspicuous? How do you think Phineas  
Nigellus, for example, reacted to news of Dumbledore's death, and 
when  did he hear?  
No, I am not surprised.  I think the portraits mostly keep  quiet.  It is 
only under unusual circumstances that we have seen them talk.  I think Harry is a 
special case; he was witness to the portraits talking to DD  except for 
Phineas at Grimauld Place.  I hope we see more of him  too.

16. "And he knew, without knowing how he knew it, that the phoenix  
had gone, had left Hogwarts for good, just as Dumbledore had left 
the  school, had left the world … had left Harry." Did you find this 
ending to  the chapter poignant? Does it wear off after the sixth re-
read? If we see  Fawkes again in book 7, do you think we will get to 
know him as a character  in his own right, or will he always be 
associated with and symbolise  Dumbledore?
 
Yes, it is poetic and uses Fawkes as a symbol of the great loss Harry is  
feeling.  I think he will be back, but as a symbol of DD and of his  influence.  
 
Thank you for these excellent questions.
 
Nikkalmati 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]