[HPforGrownups] Re: Christian Forgiveness and Snape (was Would Harry forgiving )

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 164302

Magpie:
>> It's Harry who has something to forgive Snape for, whether he
> killed
>> Dumbledore on Dumbledore's orders or not. Not only has Snape
>> objectively treated him badly, it was his intentional bad act that
>> put Harry in the position he's in now and killed his parents. This
>> is what Dumbledore claims Snape has remorse over.

Lupinlore:
> Okay.  So (and I'm not arguing, I just want to get it straight) Harry
> is the one who must forgive Snape.  Dumbledore, you say, has not
> forgiven Snape but given him the chance to make "amends."
>
> So, do you see DD as wanting to create an opening of forgiveness for
> Snape?  In other words, is part of his amends supposed to be earning
> Harry's forgiveness (or at least recieving it, because earning and
> forgiveness are tricky concepts particularly in the context of
> Christian theology)?  If that is the case, then our dear Bumblebee
> has been even more inept than he seems.

Magpie:
I don't feel very confident ever knowing what's in Dumbledore's mind...but 
hmmm...I guess that yes, Dumbledore probably does feel like he's giving 
Snape an opening for redemption here. But he probably sees that as all that 
Snape is trying to do to protect Harry.

Like, as I imagine it from Dumbledore's pov (which could be totally wrong, 
obviously, since I'm not JKR), he sees Snape full of remorse over the death 
of Harry's parents and his bitterness at Harry himself comes out of that. So 
he sees Snape trying to make amends for it.

But as to whether Harry would forgive him, Dumbledore himself never told 
Harry that Snape was the eavesdropper. Would he ever have told him? I 
wonder.... He may have thought he could just get away with Harry never 
knowing that Snape was the eavesdropper, or vaguely thought Harry could be 
told after Snape had come through and he could show Harry all at once that 
see, Snape did make a mistake back then but now you can see that he made it 
better. (Perhaps he thought he might do this after Snape was even dead so 
there's no more potential conflict between them--"Snape really did die 
heroically, Harry. Btw, did I ever mention he was the eavesdropper? No? 
Well, doesn't matter now. He's dead, innit?)

In thinking about the scene in canon, iirc Harry comes in furious at 
Dumbledore but quickly winds up thinking that he's got to control his anger 
or else Dumbledore won't let him go on the Horcrux Hunt. I don't have the 
book in front of me, but it seems like Dumbledore managed to work is so that 
when Harry confronted him with this rather large betrayal on his part, he 
was able to put a lid on it very quickly, making it more about Harry. There 
was a quick, "Oh, you don't understand..." but I think they moved on quickly 
because he was offering something Harry wanted, the Horcrux Hunt. He was 
both unlucky that it happened when he wanted to deal with something else and 
lucky that it happened when he had something to trump it for Harry.

I think Dumbledore manipulates Harry really well, I should admit, and this 
is one of those places. He seems to often *seem* like he really cares about 
him personally, and claims that he does, but when I really look at what he's 
doing...I'm not seeing that. (Sort of like how in OotP I see him saying how 
he's going to explain all his mistakes and then going on to explain everyone 
else's mistakes--making his mistake not expecting so many mistakes by 
others.) To me he always seems to want to forgive himself for all his 
mistakes, so we get lines like his one about the Dursleys where he describes 
Harry as a little less well-fed than he would have liked or whatever.

-m