Question about the prophecy and a thought about Ginny

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 171088

zgirnius:
> Interesting point, I had not thought of it. Though I suppose 
> Dumbledore might not believe the 'right' baby could die at the 
> hands of a DE ('either must die at the hand of the other').
<snip>

Dana:
That part of the prophecy would also only count if LV had marked the 
boy as his equal. Harry before he was marked as LV's equal could have 
been killed like any other kid on the block. So without LV's 
involvement in the killing of the baby there would not have been 
the "right" baby. It was LV's choice what made the baby become the 
one the prophecy was refering to. It could have been Neville if LV 
had chosen him. 

zgirnius:
> Just stepping in here, to point out that *if* Dumbledore chose to 
> sacrifice his own life on the Tower by *asking* Snape to kill him 
> (he did say please <g>) rather than attempt a rescue, this was 
> surely not a cold, calculating, evil decision, but a noble act of 
> self-sacrifice. And Snape could have walked away if he wanted to, 
> like any other Order member. In other words, the Tower scene 
> meaning what *I* believe it means in no way makes lizzyben's view 
> of the prophecy events more likely.
<snip>

Dana:
Killing splits the soul (pg 465 UKed PB chapter "Horcruxes") that is 
what Slughorn stated and no where in canon, is it said that justified 
killing would not split the soul in the same way. It is not just 
murder that splits the soul, it is killing another human being. 
Sirius specifically stated that Barty's method of fighting the DEs 
with their own methods made him as bad as the DEs themselves. To 
Barty killing of a DE might have been justified and in any legal 
system in the world it might be but to DD it does not and therefore 
DD would never ask Snape to kill him and split his soul. DD would not 
sacrifice just his own life but Snape's soul which is a violation; it 
is against nature (same page as previous quote)

You can't ask someone to kill you and sacrifice that person's soul 
that is not what self-sacrifice means and it is not an act of good. 
Maybe in our distorted world we believe that there is some type of 
justified killing of another human being because we have become so 
accustomed to it, that we do not see that a life is still the most 
precious thing we have in this world. Without life everything else is 
meaningless. 

Snape made a vow that prevented him from doing the right thing and 
DD, all through the books, let people come to their own choices. 
Snape made a choice in the beginning of the year that it would be 
either his life or that of DD and that choice affected the choices he 
had to make throughout the year and on the tower. He sacrificed DD 
because of his own human weakness and theorizing that he did it 
because he was asked/ ordered, takes away the responsibility of his 
actions and choices. Something everybody had to face the entire story 
but for some reason no one wants Snape to face his. Lizzyben's view 
included another "Snape is not responsible for his own choices" 
because DD ordered Snape to bring the prophecy to LV and she also 
included that DD sacrificed himself by having Snape kill him on the 
tower. That is why I included it in my post. 

You can't sacrifice your own life by asking someone to kill you and 
if Snape indeed never killed before, it would mean that he would have 
to damage his own soul to perform this act. That would mean fighting 
evil with evil something we are specifically shown through out the 
books, is not the way of good. DD does not believe you can fight evil 
with evil and that Harry can only defeat LV because he has an 
undamaged soul and a heart filled with a power LV detests. Harry was 
extremely lucky that Snape indeed was there, even though Snape did 
not safe Draco to help Harry keep his soul intact. Therefore to even 
think that DD would ask such a horrible thing, something that is in 
violation with nature, to do for him or on his orders would not be an 
act of good and would be morally wrong to ask of anyone. 

In my opinion there is a lot of assuming going on that Snape would 
know Harry was there or that he would know DD was dying but to me it 
doesn't matter because Snape made a choice in the beginning of the 
year that left him no room to do the right thing on the tower. If 
Snape had not done that then he could have prevented Draco from ever 
coming to one single attempt. He therefore as DD expected of him 
could keep everybody safe *before* Draco would do anything that would 
pass the point of no return. But everything he did on the tower was 
directed by the vow he took and therefore whatever Snape thought was 
his only option it can never in my book be considered anything else 
then an act of evil on Snape's part. 

To me the flight of the Prince and Snape's face reflecting pain was 
when he realized that there had been a witness to the events on the 
tower and thus Snape realizing there would be no way back from this 
now. If no one had witnessed how DD died then Snape could claim, what 
many readers claim, that he led the DEs out of the castle as fast as 
he could to protect everyone but that he was to late to safe DD. But 
now with Harry as a witness he could no longer do so. I believe that 
Snape would have tried to kill Harry if Buckbeak had not intervened. 
To me Snape mocking Harry and raging on about Harry's filthy father 
was just Snape thinking Harry was on watch with the other kids and 
coming after him because Snape told the DEs it was over implying he 
was one of them. Snape did not know what DD was doing that night. How 
do I know this? Because DD specifically stated to Harry that Harry 
needed to go and WAKE UP Snape (pg 545 chapter "the lighting-struck 
tower). DD did not have Snape on alert; he was expecting Snape to be 
asleep. No one knew besides Ron and Hermione that DD had taken Harry 
with him. 

To me that was Snape's original plan to have everybody think the DEs 
killed DD when Draco failed. Snape had never planned to come off that 
fence but Harry ruined it for him. If Snape truly had done the most 
difficult job of his life that night why is he not yelling at Harry 
like he did to Hermione in PoA that he does not understand? Why is he 
mocking Harry instead of having pain attached to his face the entire 
time he faces Harry if he knew from the moment on the tower that 
Harry was there? No, his face only chances when Harry made it known 
to him he saw what Snape did. That he killed a defenceless and 
wandless man. Snape is indeed not a coward for trying to pull of the 
murder of the only man that trusted him, with the intention to 
pretend he is still on the same side. 

It is my interpretation of canon and part maybe speculation but we 
will see if JKR would ever find it justified to ask someone to kill 
you or that she made Snape spin himself into a death end. 

zgirnius:
> I disagree, it is canon that Dumbledore said so, but not that it 
> was the truth. I *believe* it was, just as you do, but there is 
> no "proof" that we are right (for the next three weeks). If a 
> poster believes Dumbledore would set Voldemort on the Potters for 
> the greater good, surely she can also believe that the same 
> Dumbledore would lie to Harry for that same greater good.
<snip>

Dana:
The poster can believe whatever she wants that is her right as an 
individual but where is the proof that DD lied to Harry. And if there 
isn't any proof that DD lied to Harry then his own promise that he 
never would lie to him is proof. The greater good does not exist if 
you have to lie about it. If you truly believe that you are doing the 
right thing then you do not have to resort to lying. That is indeed 
what Snape does to Fudge in PoA and again in OotP when he tells DD 
that he had no way of knowing Harry would still believe Sirius was in 
danger while we know that Snape never came back to fill Harry in that 
Sirius was safe, something that I still do not understand because if 
Snape was convinced he was right then why would he need to lie. Snape 
never stated for instance to DD that he believed Harry to be 
incapable of getting away from Umbridge or that he did not believe 
Harry would find away to get to the DoM. He specifically states that 
he did not know Harry still believed Sirius to be a captive of LV. 
Lying makes something false and if you have to bend the truth to make 
it look better then you know that what you are doing is wrong. 

If you actually believe in what you are doing is for the greater good 
then you stand by your decision and you face up to the responsibility 
of that decision. You do not lie about it. Every single thing in 
these books would fall apart if it had all been planned by DD and 
pretty much the entire story as it stands now would become a lie too. 

zgirnius:
> Surely what matters most is not why Snape changed, but *that* he 
> did (assuming he did, naturally)? If Snape truly ceased to serve 
> Voldemort for whatever reason lo these 20 years ago, and switched 
> to helping the Order 'at great personal risk', those 
> actions/choices of Snape's are good rather than evil. One can 
> disapprove of his reasons and think it preferable for him to have 
> more noble ones, but if he is risking discovery and death to help 
> the good guys, that's 'good' enough for me.
<snip>

Dana:
Every Order member was working for the Order at great personal risk. 
Snape taking risks was not bigger then that of anyone else. They were 
all opposing the same man and they all risked being killed by him or 
one of his DEs. Lupin in OotP specifically states that LV was picking 
them off one by one. 

Snape might have redeemed himself by going to DD but the reason DD 
gives for is his return, according to DD himself, was initiated by 
the choice LV made and Snape knowing the people it involved. This 
choice could only have been made after Harry was born so it took 
Snape at least 9 whole months to come to his remorse and only when LV 
made his decision to include a person Snape owed a debt too, did he 
try to prevent LV getting to the Potters. That to me raises a big red 
flag on the truthfulness of Snape's remorse. As I stated before, your 
moral values should always be on, not just when they hit close to 
home. You can't just switch your moral values off because you do not 
know the people that are going to be killed. And to me Snape is much 
too eager to have people killed and is to eager to claim having a 
hand in their deaths for me to feel comfortable with the idea that 
Snape truly had remorse about what he did and that the debt he owed 
James had nothing to do with his so-called return to the right side. 
Also his inactions as a spy to prevent anything on the basis that he 
could not have known this or that, while it was his job to find out 
these things is for me not a supporting factor that he did everything 
in his power to help the Order. 

Snape did not do anything that would risk discovery because he was 
sent by LV to spy on DD and so he himself was actually safer then any 
other Order Member because Snape was with DD on LV's orders and as 
Bella in Spinner's End confirmed other DEs knew this as well. DD kept 
Snape away from the Order so Snape would never have risked being seen 
with any of them and he was supposed to be close to DD. The only 
thing Snape did that risked his life for awhile was staying on as a 
teacher after LV's down fall and thus being considered to live in 
DD's pocket but cleaver Snape had not closed all the doors to the 
past behind him and so Lucius could vouch for him there as well. 

We never see in canon, beside DD suggesting the Fidelius charm 
because he was alerted by one of his useful spies, that Snape gave 
the Order any information that could keep them one step ahead of LV. 
Before LV met his downfall at GH, the Order was losing its grip and 
were losing Order Members at a very fast rate (no, I do not want to 
imply Snape had a hand in that, there is no canon to support that 
either). So to me Snape kept himself in a most convenient neutral 
position and only gave a minimum of information. He was never accused 
of giving the Order information while even DD could detect there 
being a spy in their midst just because LV seemed to know an awful 
lot about the Potters movements. Bella's doubts about Snape had 
nothing to do with things Snape might have done before LV met his 
faith at GH but only his actions afterwards as she herself confirmed 
that Snape was where he was ordered to be.

So no I'm not convinced by any of Snape's actions before or after GH 
that Snape really had returned to the side of good. I'm still on the 
fence when it comes to declaring Snape an LVM but I'm pretty darn 
sure that Snape would not shy away of giving LV information to help 
his own cause but it remains to be seen if I am right as without hard 
proof except Snape's own claim, that is not rebutted by either 
Narcissa or Bella, it falls in the category of speculation. 

zgirnius:
> -  There is an important difference between Dumbledore's story of 
> Snape's remorse and Dumbledore's acceptance of it, and Snape's 
> actions regarding Sirius. Snape regretted his action and tried to 
> make amends, or at least, so Dumbledore believes. Sirius, the same 
> twenty years after the fact, still has no regrets, so far as Snape 
> knows. (Snape overhears the conversation in which Sirius states 
> he 'deserved it').
<snip>

Dana:
To me there isn't because Sirius does not have to regret anything 
because Snape did not die or get hurt. You do not know how Sirius 
would have felt if Snape would have gotten hurt. Snape might have 
regretted his actions but he never acted like he regretted anything. 
He has no respect for the dead and bullies Harry from day one because 
he is the boy that lived, something Harry never asked for but Snape 
did set in motion. James saved Snape's live but Snape disrespects 
James risking his own life to safe his while he expects Harry to 
thank him on bended knee. 

And Snape keeping what he did a secret so no one knows what he did 
while he himself ran to DD to tell what Sirius did to him, is to me 
Snape expecting everyone to settle with DD's explanation and that he 
should be forgiven for his mistakes while he never forgives others 
for there's and never accepts DD's decision on these matters. 

Sirius never stated Snape deserved to be killed, he stated that it 
served him right (to be played a trick on in my opinion), for always 
trying to find out what they where up to, for trying to get them 
expelled. And let me state this for the record, it was again Snape's 
snooping around that got people into trouble only this time it was 
something far more serious then the risk of getting expelled or 
getting detention. 

zgirnius:
> -  Regarding the point that there is little virtue in doing 
> something because you don't want to hurt 'people you know':
> Do you believe that a person who has done evil things can ever make 
> a choice to change? I find this hard to believe in light of your 
> eloquent exposition on the theme of choice in the series (snipped, 
> as I agree).
<snip>

Dana:
Yes, I believe that someone who made a wrong choice can be truly 
sorry for what they have done and yes I wholeheartedly believe people 
deserve a second chance. I might not have given the feeling on this 
list with my posts that I'm very open-minded but I am and I sincerely 
looked at Snape's case from both views but I came to the conclusion 
that Snape's remorse doesn't sound true for me. 

For the simple reason that I see Snape's hatred direct his actions 
and it makes his moral values take a back seat so he can have his 
revenge played out. Snape hated James and he shows no where in canon 
that he is sorry James died. Snape in the shack states to Harry 
specifically that he would have been served well if Sirius had killed 
him. You'd have died like your father to arrogant to believe you 
might be mistaken in Black (pg 265 UKed PB chapter "The Servant of 
Lord Voldermort"). Snape is not sorry James died; it served him well, 
just like it would serve Harry well, because he put his trust in the 
wrong man. Where is Snape's remorse in this? Where do we see him 
feeling responsible for LV going after the Potters? That he truly 
felt it as his biggest regret? People might speculate that it was not 
his debt to James but that Snape somehow loved Lily but to me that 
don't matter because to me it still means that Snape was only partly 
truthful about his remorse. Part truths are also still part lies. So 
in this case you can be very sure that the part he lied about being 
sorry that LV interpreted the prophecy to include James and if it had 
only been about James then Snape would not have regretted it one bit 
and he actually shows through out the book that he indeed never was 
sorry James died as a result of what he did. 

Although I have no clear cut proof to show to you but I believe that 
DD believed Snape's story of remorse BECAUSE it included James. I 
believe that DD believed that Snape had overcome his hatred for James 
in order for him to do the right thing. I believe that is why DD in 
the first PS/ SS told Harry about Snape trying to keep him safe 
regardless of his hatred for James. That he wanted to show that no 
matter how much Snape might hate him that DD believed Snape would 
always do the right thing and not let his hatred get in the way. DD 
was not a fool to believe that people indeed could overcome their 
hatred for a person in order for them to do the right thing. James 
saved Snape's life (which DD tells Harry in the same story) at great 
personal risk because it was the only right thing to do but DD 
underestimated the quantity of Snape's true hatred and that Snape 
could never overcome this hatred. 

I know many have used McGonagall's statement in the hospital wing to 
proof that there must be more to DD's trust in Snape but read the 
quote again. McGonagall never states that DD told her he had an 
ironclad reason to trust Snape. What she really says is that DD 
always *hinted* at having an ironclad reason to trust Snape, the 
ironclad part is her own interpretation for DD's reasons about his 
truth in Snape. (pg 574 UKed PB Chapter "The Phoenix Lament"). DD 
like with James believed Snape had chosen to do what is right instead 
of what is easy and he truly believed that Snape showed great courage 
to admit he was wrong and risk his own life to safe a man that he 
hated with all his might. 

The only problem unlike James, Snape is not a Gryffindor and although 
Slytherin's as Phineas tells us are not cowards, they will do 
everything to save their own necks first. It is not for nothing that 
JKR let Harry cause Peter to have a debt to him. Because if the life-
debt is indeed a kind of magic that would request the debtor to 
sacrifice his own life (no he does not have to die just risk it) to 
safe the person they owed the debt to, then Snape's actions to try to 
safe James was because this type of magic left him no other choice 
then to try and that to me makes his remorse story a false one. If 
Snape would not have been magically bound to undo bring James in 
direct danger when LV interpretted the prophecy in such away then I 
believe Snape would have done nothing. Of course we still have the 
possibility that Snape just used the remorse story to get close to DD 
because he was ordered by LV to do so. 

Anyway to me there are a lot of things in canon that show me that 
Snape let other things come in the way of making morally appropiate 
decisions and that he never takes one bit of responsibility for them 
if he can put the blame with someone else instead. Well at least 
until HBP because there a tiny pesky jinxs prevented him having all 
that he wanted. Living through the UV and get away with killing DD. 
He might never have set out to want to kill DD but I truly believe he 
thought he could get away with it but he was once again thwarted by 
Harry Potter. 

JMHO

Dana