Question about the prophecy and a thought about Ginny

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 171124

Magpie:
<snip>
> That is, McGonagall's line doesn't prove
> Dumbledore's reason was really ironclad, but I disagree with what 
> you also seem to be saying, which is that because Dumbledore 
> only "hinted" to McG that he has a good reason and didn't actually 
> say it, she's wrong to think it. That seems too much like lying on 
> Dumbledore's part and also on JKR's for putting that line into the 
> mouth of a trustworthy character. McGonagall is the kind of 
> character who knows when she's being hinted to, and having
> seen Dumbledore hint myself I agree with what she's getting. He 
> does have some reason for trusting Snape he has never shared with 
> us or with her. It can't be something we know already, because he 
> won't tell us.
<snip>

Dana:
Actually I was not trying to imply that McGonagall is therefore 
wrong, what I meant is that it was never DD that said that his trust 
in Snape was ironclad.  
The way McGonagall expressed herself on how she perceived DD's trust 
in Snape is her own assessment of DD's behaviour about that trust 
issue. And although it is therefore not by definition that there 
can't be anything more to DD's trust then we currently know. it is 
definitely not proof that there was either. Which was actually the 
point I was trying to make. 

I asked myself this question, would DD say the same thing about the 
other people working for him if it was constantly put into question? 
Yes, he would and we see he did when Snape nagged to him about Lupin 
in PoA. He did not want to hear another word about it. 
The only reason DD constantly repeats his trust in Snape is because 
people question Snape's trustworthiness over and over again. This 
does not have to mean that DD's trust in Snape is therefore somehow 
more special then the trust he has for the other people working for 
him and we actually do not see that DD gives Snape any kind of 
special treatment at all. 

I myself never made Snape's trustworthiness dependent on DD's trust 
in him. I never looked at it that way because no matter how much DD 
trusts him, it does not make Snape more or less trustworthy. So 
unless DD had something that he could blackmail Snape with, I'd say 
that it doesn't really matter why DD trusted Snape because if Snape 
does not honour that trust for whatever reason then it is still 
Snape's decision to make and not DD's. JKR cleverly pulled the wool 
over people's eyes with DD's continuous declaration of trust in 
Severus Snape because trust in someone can never control the 
behaviour of that person. DD could not keep Snape out of jail 
because he was a former DE but DD could keep Snape out of jail 
because Snape had been working for DD. We see that DD's influence 
doesn't go that far when it comes to proving people innocent of what 
they are accused of without any proof, DD could not do that for 
Sirius. DD was Snape's proof not Snape's remorse. 

To me it is just opinion that DD never told why he trusted Snape 
because I believe he did. I believe he trusted Snape because he 
believed Snape's story of remorse. He believed that because Snape 
declared that it was the biggest regret of his life and that he made 
a terrible mistake, that Snape deserved a second chance and DD gave 
it to him. DD gave Snape a second chance and wiped his DE record 
clean because Snape could not be implicated in any other type of DE 
activity other then his spying on DD. As DD declared in GoF, Snape 
is now no more a DE then I am. DD did not accept people questioning 
Snape because of his past because second chances mean that you end 
the past and start anew. That is why he did not want to hear 
anything about it, just like he did not want to hear about Snape 
questioning Lupin's trustworthiness because of what happened in the 
past. It was not up to DD to proof Snape was truly remorseful, he 
just gave Snape the chance to do so. Therefore I do not understand 
DD must be a fool if Snape turns out to be untrustworthy. If you 
give someone your trust and a chance to make wrongs right and that 
person messes it up or never had the intention to live up to it, 
then to me that says more about that person then about the person 
who gave the second chance. It takes great courage to give your 
trust to someone that once made the wrong choices but DD was not 
afraid to give it anyway. 

To see if Snape was really trustworthy then one should look at Snape 
for answers to these questions and not to the reasons for DD's trust 
in Snape. And if you do that then you will see that Snape betrayed 
that trust several times by lying and these lies are directly linked 
to the faith of people's lives and therefore to me I do not believe 
that Snape was truly remorseful about what he had done but that he 
did everything in his power to get from under that pesky life-debt 
he owed James. And lying to me needs thinking about what kind of 
story you want to present. Lying needs calculation and is therefore 
a conscious decision to bend the truth because this alternative 
truth serves you better. Therefore to me Snape is not DDM and DD's 
trust, although should have meant a lot to the person he gave it to, 
can not be used to determine Snape's loyalty. 

Magpie:
> I was referring to Draco's decision once the DEs were there (which 
> was his first choice for killing DD, implying a direct 
> confrontation--he wasn't ordered to bring DEs into the castle, he 
> was ordered to kill DD). Once they are there the way for him to 
> save his own skin would be to kill Dumbledore, thus removing the 
> immediate threat of punishment from LV and the DEs. He couldn't do 
> that, even though the result of that was most likely Draco being 
> killed himself. I do agree with your points on Gryffindors 
> preferring direct confrontations to Slytherins seeming to prefer 
> subterfuge. As it happens Draco's behavior, despite the B-movie 
> sneaky murder attempts, doesn't quite follow those rules in this 
> book, though I don't think that overturns everything.
<snip>

Dana:
Well to me the bathroom scene where Draco is crying that he can't do 
it and the need for the cabinet to be fixed is to me and indication 
that bringing DEs into the castle was part of Draco's orders. Also 
Draco specifically states that he was supposed to wait on the tower 
and although I understand that did can be interpreted as a plan 
Draco himself concocted, I red it as Draco having given the 
assignment to wait on the tower till the other DEs had set the trap 
for DD. Also Draco specifically stating to DD that he did not invite 
Fenrir seems to me that he actually did not have any choice in the 
matter at all. 

Also I do not see Draco giving up as a true conscious choice he made 
but merely something he could not make himself do and gave up. To me 
Draco proved he was not capable of murder and not that he chose to 
spare DD's life. To me there is a difference. Draco did not make a 
choice that he would spare DD's life at the coast of his own. He did 
not sacrifice himself so DD could live. Although I am truly glad 
that Draco could not kill DD, he did not do some type of heroic deed 
on the tower. He was to cowardly to take someone's life and it was 
not him deciding that he would not kill DD even though he could if 
he wanted too. He couldn't, even though there was probably nothing 
in the world that he wished at that moment then DD to just drop 
death and get it over with. 
If Draco would have had the courage to save his own skin then he 
would have but the essence of Draco's story is that he was not as 
tuff as he presented himself to be and that talking about doing 
things is a lot easier then having to actually do it.  
 
Magpie:
> That's a totally weak attempt, though, and it's months before 
> Harry's in any danger. When Harry is tied up and actually about to 
> die Peter doesn't act to save him. And Snape lives on fine after 
> James' death. So it doesn't seem like OFH!Snape has to worry about 
> his Life Debt much at all. Also, it seems like Peter's actually 
> been very hidden about most of his attacks in canon-he made that 
> one open, it seems to me, because he needed it public for his 
> cover. I suspect most people probably have a mixture of things on
> their record, even if Gryffindors seem to far prefer an open fight 
> where Slytherins prefer subterfuge.
<snip>

Dana:
Although I agree that Peter made a weak attempt he nevertheless did 
something Snape was not willing to do for Draco. 
Just because you do not see Snape jump through hoops to safe James 
life doesn't mean that Snape would not think about wanting to get 
rid of that debt before it could hurt him indefinitely. 
What if LV had ordered Snape to tag along with him the night he went 
to GH then Snape would have been forced to act and it would have 
meant he would have had to die for James because LV would not accept 
an excuse "sorry master you can't kill this man today because I owe 
this man a debt." Well let me help you get rid of it Severus, you 
will have not to worry about it any longer" and a flash over green 
light is all it would have taken. 

So Snape would have had to worry about what the debt could mean to 
his own safety because he does not want to have to give up his own 
life for someone he hated with all his might. 

Magpie:
> I'd think Snape would still be the cause of their death in a big 
> way, myself.
<snip>

Dana:
Well that is my opinion too ;o) but anyway I should have restrained 
myself from speculating about how the life-debt works because 
essentially there is to little in canon to support any theory in 
that direction one way or the other but there is something in canon 
that makes the debt something very important for Snape to consider 
and that is DD telling Harry that one day he will be grateful that 
he saved Peter's life (not direct quote) and this would mean the 
reverse for Snape. DD already stated in PS/ SS that James did 
something that Snape could never forgive and that was saving his 
life. Whatever the life-debt magically means does not really matter 
in the sense of detail because essentially the debt is something 
that Harry will be one day be grateful for and this means that Peter 
will one day do something as a result of the debt he owes Harry. 
This is enough information you actually need to be able to conclude 
that Snape could end up in a situation where the debt makes him do 
what he doesn't really wants to do, in relation to James and because 
I believe Snape is a very calculated man that thinks far more about 
the consequence and the way he can get out of them I believe Snape 
indeed took precautionary actions to prevent himself from ever 
having to end up honouring that life-debt if the worst case scenario 
would ever present itself as a result of LV interpreting the 
prophecy to include James. 

Magpie:
> I have to say, that would make for a really lame answer in canon. 
> I think Dumbledore's reason to trust Snape will be emotional and 
> interesting and clear, not something that requires any explanation 
> about the ins and outs of Life Debts and when they take effect and 
> how to get around them by splitting hairs. 
<snip>

Dana:
I think the betrayal of Snape will be emotional and interesting and 
clear. That Snape could betray a man that stood out for him that 
accepted him for who he was, instead of what he pretended to be. 
That took Snape for Snape with all his flaws and all his misfortunes 
and gave him a chance to be all he could be as a human being. Snape 
never saw this but he will. 

Magpie:
> Dumbledore has a reason to trust Snape. Dumbledore knows about 
> everything Snape owes to James, and Snape's responsibility in the 
> Potter's death. I see no way the Life Debt can be Dumbledore's 
> reason for trusting Snape given everything we've seen. I know less 
> about magic than DD does, and the Life Debt is obviously not able 
> to prove anyone's loyalty even from where I sit. 
<snip>

Dana:
I think the betrayal of Snape will be emotional and interesting and 
clear. That Snape could betray a man that stood out for him that 
accepted him for who he was instead of he pretended to be. That took 
Snape for Snape with all his flaws and all his misfortunes and gave 
him a chance to be all he could be as a human being. Snape never saw 
this but he will. 

You never no what you lost until it is gone, will be the phrase most 
fitting for Snape. The life-debt that Snape experienced as the most 
awful thing in his life was actually the best thing that ever 
happened to him if he only had recognized it as such. When the debt 
made him go to DD (in my opinion) and DD reached out to him, Snape 
should have understood the gesture DD was making but he did not he 
was to busy trying to avoid the consequences of what a debt could 
mean to him personally. That it could possibly mean the end of him. 
Snape, too hung up for being recognized for his abilities instead of 
the human being Severus Snape that also lived in that head 
somewhere,  did not see that DD tried to give that person a chance. 
I believe Snape meant what he said in Spinner's End that he 
considered DD a fool for believing his story of remorse because I 
truly believe Snape could never see that his story of remorse had 
nothing to do with it. DD trusted Snape's willingness to chance his 
life to do what is right instead of what is easy. Changing once life 
is the hardest thing to do and most people never get the hang of it 
and make many mistakes in the process. The most precious thing a 
person can receive when he has done something wrong, is someone 
trusts and commitment so you can have a new beginning so you can 
make a fresh start. Therefore it doesn't matter why DD trusted Snape 
because Snape betrayed that trust, the trust of the only man that 
believed in Severus Snape completely. 

And that will be the most emotional thing you ever red when Severus 
Snape suddenly realises what DD really did for him. DD would 
accepted Snape back even if Snape would not have been able to work 
as a spy for him. He would have made the same decisions regardless 
of Snape's abilities. He kept Snape from the DADA job not because he 
was worried Snape would fall back into his old habits but because he 
wanted to show Snape that you do not have to do what you are good at 
to be respected as a human being. Snape if he never had bullied on 
single student would have been a respected as a teacher and he 
probably would have inspired people to learn from his extended 
knowledge but he never got it. He resented having to be the potions 
master but learned as much as he could about it so he could never be 
outwitted by another student and why he made the stakes so high for 
students to reach. Snape wasted his second chance with living his 
life in the most superficial way possible because he expected that 
one day LV might be back and everything he did would then be used 
against him. Snape never got that if he had made the effort to be 
friends that they would have fought for him till the end that they 
WOULD have died for him. But now with Harry witnessing him killing 
DD and there being no way back he will no what it is to stand alone 
and then Harry will safe his butt. 

Magpie:
> When does DD ever claim that he's thought Snape got over any 
> feelings for James? Doesn't he say on at least two occasions that 
> he hasn't, and even in OotP say that he overestimated Snape's 
> ability to get over those feelings by giving him a much simpler 
> task? I just don't think Dumbledore could ever base his entire 
> trust in Snape on anything related to his getting over his hatred 
> for James.
<snip>

Dana:

I don't think that I expressed myself clearly because I meant it the 
other way around. DD trusted Snape BECAUSE Snape hated James but did 
the right thing regardless. 
It is not about getting over these feelings, it is doing the right 
thing despite of these feelings. DD made a mistake because Severus 
Snape never forgives people that challenge him in life and he will 
get back at them and he'll do it without ever getting his own hands 
dirty. Well at least until HBP where he made a mistake of committing 
himself to a vow with no other choice then to do it himself if Draco 
fails. 

DD was not a fool to believe that a person like Snape deserved a 
chance to make something of his life after he made some mistakes but 
Snape was the fool who did not recognize what was given to him. Yes, 
DD paid for his mistake with his life but it is Snape who will have 
to live with the consequences. (Yes, he'll live through book 7). 

Maybe it is wishful thinking on my part but if JKR would indeed go 
this way I trust it will be anything but lame and it would be very 
satisfying ending for me. 

JMHO

Dana