OPEN: Ultimate and Last Bragging Rights by TigerPatronus

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 171340

Laurel wrote:
<snip>
> I wonder how it would have turned out if Snape had taught Harry how
to repel Dementors. I wonder how it would have turned out if
Dumbledore or Lupin had taught Harry Occlumency. I think Snape's
method f teaching is shortsighted; just as Voldemort disdains the
power of love, so does Snape. Apparently Draco had no trouble learning
Occlumency from Auntie Bellatrix in a short period of time; perhaps
she learned the skill from Voldemort? And taught  Draco the same way
she was taught? I think JKR is going with the whole "intent" angle of
magic. One can use different methods to attain the same goal, but it
is the positive or negative intent that makes the difference.

Carol responds:
I don't see much connection, if any, between "the power of Love" and
Occlumency. Nor do I think there was any particular problem with
Snape's method of teaching Occlumency, which, for all we know, is the
standard procedure. He tells Harry what Occlumency is and what
Legilimency is, why he needs to learn Occlumency (except for the
details of the Prophecy, which DD doesn't want Harry to know), what he
intends to do to Harry, and what he expects Harry to do in return (use
any spell he can think of to block the Legilimency spell, to practice
closing his mind at night, and to try to block the spell with his mind
as he blocked Fake!Moody's Imperius Curse). The problem is, Harry has
been feeling angry, having difficulty suppressing his emotions, all
year. It doesn't help that he hates and mistrusts Snape, and that lack
of trust is further undermined by Sirius Black's suggestion that Snape
might try to hurt Harry during the lessons. And on top of everything,
Harry wants to have the dream that Voldemort iss planting in his head
and consequently doesn't practice. Even if he'd had a natural aptitude
and hadn't invaded Snape's memories, the lessons under such
circumstances were unlikely to be successful. As for Lupin teaching
Harry, I'm sure that if he were as skilled at Occlumency as Snape, or
anywhere near it, he would have volunteered his services. (And we know
why DD didn't try. With Harry reacting with snakelike venom every time
he met DD's eyes, I doubt the lessons would have succeeded.)

In contrast to Harry, Draco has, according to JKR, a natural aptitude
for compartmentalizing his emotions (a trait we can assume that he
shares with the "superb Occlumens" Snape). Moreover, he already knows
what Occlumency is, knows that Snape is a Legilimens, and has a motive
for wanting to block Snape's Legilimency: he believes (thank, no
doubt, to aunt Bellatrix) that Snape is trying to "steal his glory." I
doubt very much that Bellatrix is as skilled an Occlumens as Snape, or
a better teacher. She simply has an apt and eager pupil. Draco, BTW,
has not mastered Occlumency to the extent that Snape has. He's still a
novice and his effort to block Snape takes conscious effort ("I know
what you're trying to do! I can stop you!") and is readily detectable.
If he tried such a stunt on Voldemort, he'd probably be Cruciod or
even killed. Snape, in contrast, has apparently been able to
"hoodwink" the Dark Lord, to lie without detection to the greatest
Legilimens who ever lived (or so Voldie believes), by concealing the
memories and emotions that would reveal his lies. (See his remarks to
Harry in the first Occlumency lesson and to Bellatrix in "Spinner's
End.") Whether Snape brings some other thought or memory or an altered
memory to his conscious mind to be viewd by Voldemot, I don't know,
but what he does is clearly not an obvious blocking (occlusion) like
Draco's with Snape.

BTW, I notice that a few posters (not Laurel) are confusing
Legilimency, which involves what Harry considers to be mind-reading
but is actually the ability to detect images and emotions in another
person's mind, with Occlumency, which is the ability to block another
wizard's efforts to penetrate your mind. Snape can do both, though
perhaps his superb Occlumency is somewhat superior to his Legilimency.
Possibly a bit of etymology would help make the distinction clearer
for those who are having trouble with it: Legilimens (one who
practices Legilimency) come from "legere" (to read) plus "mens"
(mind); Occlumens (one who practices Occlumency) comes from
"occludere" (to block) plus "mens" (mind). Snape to the contrary, the
word Legilimency suggests mind reading, whereas Occlumency suggests
blocking the mind reading (or, as Snape rather graphically puts it,
the penetration of the mind).

Carol, who thinks that Snape's methods would succeed brilliantly with
Draco if and when the opportunity arises for Snape to teach him