The Prophecy - Did Snape really only hear half of it?

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 171371

rummage8 wrote:
>
> So forgive me if this has already been thoroughly discussed. There
are so many posts that there is no way that I could go through them
all to see if this subject has been touched upon.
> 
> Though, I am pretty sure that most of the people in this discussion
group are die hard fans, so I'm sure this has been discussed...

Carol responds:

Our search function does work if you use the right search terms. In
this case, Dumbledore Snape Trelawney Prophecy will probably get you
what you're looking for. A number of posters (Mike, Steve, lizzyben,
zgirnius, and I among them) have discussed the topic fairly
frequently, most recently in lizzyben's Puppet!master Dumbledore
thread). Try this link for starters and follow the thread from there:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/171052

Here's another, less recent thread, starting with this discussion
between brothergib and me:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/162246
 
rummage 8:
<snip>
> 
> I am a little confused about Snape only hearing half of it. And I
would love any feed back anyone has.
<snip DD's version>
> Ok, but this is does not make sense.
<snip Trelawney's version>
> 
> So we have already seen in the third book..crap at least I think
it's the third..perhaps it's the fourth..where Trelawney makes that
little prophecy to Harry

Carol:
It's the third book. She's predicting that the servant (Wormtail) will
return to his master (Voldemort). And, yes, she does go into a trance
like the one she must have been in for the first Prophecy but, of
course, doesn't remember.

rummage 8:
> <snip> so ok...few things have come to mind..maybe jk made a
mistake..its happened before or maybe Snape only told Voldemort half
the prophecy...
> 
> so if he heard the whole thing...it could totally be read as his
[Voldemort's] downfall would be that night...the night Voldemort goes
to kill him.. I mean there is nothing in there about it happening 17
years later? if you heard it..you would assume...the dark lord will
fall when he tries to kill him, except Snape doesn't know how its
going to end...he doesnt know how Lily is going to go all lovey on Harry.
> 
> Now... I am assuming that he is assuming that it would be his
downfall...keeping in mind..this is kind where Lily comes into play.
We can't assume at this point that Snape knows how the dark lord will
interpret this prophecy..at this point it could have been either the
Potters or the Longbottom's. In fact, apparently Snape (if we cant
trust what he tells Dumbledore), is distressed when he finds out how
the Dark lord interprets the prophecy. Which only means that he
[snape] had interpreted it as the Neville being the one chosen one.
Which also makes sense...he despises james..he probably wouldnt have
allowed it to enter into his mind that James' son could have been of
any importance
> 
> WHICH..now that I am thinking about it..adds to why Snape would be
distressed to think that the dark lord interprets that prophecy to
mean Harry..I mean...not because of his love for Lily..but his hatred
for James. <snip>

Carol responds:
I agree that the two versions are inconsistent, but it's important to
note that DD is not only concealing the eavesdropper's identity in his
version, he's telescoping events. When he tells Harry, "He [the
eavesdropper] only heard the first part, the part foretelling the
birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort.
Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be
to risk transferring power to you--again marking you as his equal," he
makes it sound as if the Prophecy was made at a time when it was
possible to tell not only that it referred to a baby but that it
referred specifically to Harry. (DD, knowing the whole Prophecy, can
figure all this out, but I'm not so sure about young Snape.) Moreover,
at the time the Prophecy is made (sometime between autumn 1970 and
spring 1980), neither Harry nor Neville has been born, and it's
unlikely that Snape (or Voldemort) knows that Lily or Alice is
pregnant. I don't see how either of them could know that the Prophecy
could apply to Harry and/or Neville until the birth announcements
appeared in the Daily Prophet at the earliest, and even then, LV seems
to have waited almost fifteen months to act, so even he, perhaps,
didn't immediately interpret the Prophecy in a way that endangered a
baby and his parents.

So, yes, JKR *is* inconsistent on a number of points and the Prophecy
could be one of them, but DD's condensation of the events is another
factor, and Trelawney is supplying her own explanations for Snape's
behavior (he's certainly not eavesdropping for job tips though that
could, as Lizzyben suggested be the cover story that DD gave her; he
and Snape certainly have concocted their share of cover stories,
separately or together.)

I also agree that "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord
approaches" does not sound like the birth of a baby. It seems to me
that the Prophecy conflates or confuses the events at Godric's Hollow
with those that will occur when LV faces Harry as a "man" of
seventeen. Not even DD, who alone knew the whole Prophecy, could have
anticipated such an outcome originating from LV's interpretation of
this first part and his attempts to thwart it.

At any rate, I recommend that you explore the links I gave you and the
associated threads and perhaps conduct a search of your own using the
search terms I've suggested. You'll find plenty of ideas to agree or
disagree with and perhaps come up with something new after reading
them. We certainly haven't provided any definitive answers, or even
persuaded each other to share our individual interpretations AFAIK!

Carol, hearing thunder in the distance and afraid that she'll have to
turn off her computer shortly and grateful for yesterday's few drops
of rain