JKR's crying at the end of writing DH/ Double agent's death

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 171558

Nita:
> Well, that's what readers here and elsewhere have been arguing about
> for years, isn't it? :)
<snip>

Dana:
The question is does that change the perception of who Snape is 
supposed to be working for? No, it doesn't because Snape is supposed 
to be working for DD. And even if one believes he is not then it 
still does not change this directive from the reader's point of view. 
Snape is said to have become a double agent when he turned spy for 
the right side. So he was supposedly no longer loyal to LV when he 
returned to the right side. This also means that his controlling 
organization changed no matter what LV believes himself. Snape is 
supposedly working for DD as one of his useful spies and therefore LV 
is his target to spy on. If he really turned (if you believe so or 
not) then he is now working for DD and in GoF we see DD ask Snape to 
return to LV's side to again take up his role as a spy for the Order 
(besides who says DD thinks of Snape as a double agent and not just 
as a normal spy?). So no matter how you want to define Snape's true 
loyalties if you apply Snape's target and his controlling 
organization to the definition then there is only one way to 
correctly do that -> DD is controlling and LV is the target. 



Nita: 
> Mhmmm... So, whose double agent did he become by agreeing to do 
> that? LV's spy agreeing to spy on LV - sounds like DD's agent, to 
> me.
<snip>

Dana:
Yes, but Snape only became a double spy for DD after he agreed to spy 
on LV as he was a normal spy when he was send to DD. 
But a double spy is not a noble person that changes his allegiances. 
He is actually a double crosser that makes the person, he agreed to 
spy for, believe that he is actually working for him, while in 
reality he never changed allegiances and is still working for the 
same party he was originally from.  

Nita: 
> Oh, wait. I don't think it works that way. He was still pretending 
> (or "pretending", if you prefer) to spy on DD for LV, wasn't he? So 
> the Order was still the nominal target (that he was possibly 
> actually loyal to, hence the doubleness). The confusing part is 
> that *both* sides believe him to be a spy in both camps - loyal to 
> their side, of course.

Dana:
You are turning the normal spy (LV's spy) into a double spy while 
Snape only became a double spy as soon as he agreed to work for DD. 
According to DD, when Snape turned, Snape was no longer believed to 
be a DE but just pretended to be one so he could retrieve information 
from LV. LV never though Snape to no longer be a DE at that time 
other wise Snape would have been death. The problem is that you want 
to imply that Snape turning spy for DD somehow proofs that Snape 
indeed had returned to the right side but unfortunately that is not 
proof because Snape knows DD saw him when the prophecy was made and 
therefore Snape could just have used this information to concoct his 
story of remorse to get on DD's good side without defecting to the 
other side. Snape never truly defected otherwise Snape could never 
have gone back to LV in GoF and as we see he kept his options open by 
keeping his former associates close. Snape was under orders to get 
himself in a position at Hogwarts and we know LV is not the most 
patients of guys so Snape would not have the luxury to take forever 
to get there. 

I do not want to imply that it therefore can't be so but it is by no 
means proof that Snape did not make himself a double agent for a) to 
win DD's trust and b) to fulfill his life-debt to James. 

If we for a moment even assume that DD knew that Snape was a DE 
because of him listening at the door or him chasing DD around on 
other occasions then Snape would have needed to have come up with 
something to convince DD he was no longer loyal to LV. 

What I am trying to say is that Snape's double agent status will not 
give any inside into Snape's true loyalties but if you apply the 
wikipedia definition as you did then Snape is pretending to spy on 
LV, while he actually has been spying on DD all along. 

Nita: 
> Why not the other way around? Didn't Snape use his "sixteen years of
> information on Dumbledore" to get back into LV's good graces,
> according to his speech in Spinner's End?
<snip>

Dana:
So, does this mean that he has been pretending to spy on DD? 


Nita: 
> Well, I see that you see it that way. But don't you agree that it
> could work equally well the other way around? :)
<snip>

Dana:
No, it could not equally work the other way. Snape is either a double 
agent loyal to LV or he is a triple agent loyal to DD but he is not a 
double agent loyal to DD in the strictest sense of the definition you 
posted. Snape is working on DD's orders to spy on LV that is what 
canon tells us and whatever Snape is truly doing or who he is truly 
loyal too can't be defined by just conveniently turning the 
definition up-side down (MHO). LV is and has always been the target 
in Snape's double agent function, before that time he was a normal 
spy and after, he not a spy at all because he has no controlling 
organization to report to anymore, he is now just a DE if he wants to 
be or not, as the rest of the WW is looking for him. 



Nita: 
> Well, could he rely on Snape's reports if he didn't trust him? I 
> don't think so. LV simply tries to ensure loyalty using death 
> threats,torture and Legilimency, and since he apparently thinks 
> himself so great no one could "hoodwink" him (notice how Bella 
> shuts up after Snape's question), he deems trust unnecessary. 
> Instead, he makes sure his agents don't know each other if possible 
> (or at least Karkaroff says so) and fear him more than anything.
<snip>

Dana:
Personally I do not think LV can be "hoodwinked" and I do not believe 
Snape is too stupid to try (there is much more to lose if he does and 
is found out). But Snape's reports, how much have they helped the 
Order so far? He is not able to identify the spy in the Potters inner 
circle, he doesn't know LV is going to target the Potters on 
Halloween, he doesn't tell DD that LV's plans have changed and only 
alerts the Order when he already lost track of Harry, he does 
absolutely nothing to stop Draco because he has made a packed that 
prevents him to act. 

Casulty rate on the Orders side: 2 death, 1 imprisoned for 12 years, 
1 death and 1 claimed to have died by information given by him 
(Emmeline Vance) and 1 death by his own hand. Mhhh 5 dead people, all 
on Snape's watch and even more lives ruined. What a great guy that 
Snape that he offered his service to DD, really big help he has been. 

Nita: 
> So, different leaders, different strategy. And since no "civilized"
> government in their right mind would admit to using LV's methods, 
> the article says that apparently good spies are trusted, like DD 
> trusted Snape. Makes sense to me.
<snip>

Dana:
The article states that the controlling organization trusts these 
double agents to actually be truly working for them while in reality 
they never have. They are betrayed in that trust. A good spy is one 
that is not a double spy, who just infiltrates an organization for 
information but it is a one way street as they never reveal they 
actually belong to the other side so the enemy does not know they 
have a spy in their midst. 

Nita: 
> Yeah, he didn't manage to do that. By the way, Karkaroff didn't name
> Pettigrew either, despite such effective motivation. And if I were 
> LV, I would *certainly* keep my two spies in the Order separately. 
> It's such a great opportunity to cross-check their reports, after 
> all :)

Dana:
Pettigrew is believed to be dead by the time Karkaroff gives his 
statements. He wants to get out of Azkaban so what is the use to give 
evidence on a dead guy (or believed to be dead)? And it actually 
doesn't help him when he mentions Rosier and it is stated that he 
died just after the MoM had put Karkaroff in prison himself. 


Nita:  
> I wasn't actually trying to prove anything, though. After I 
> described how the term "double agent" applies to DDM!Snape, I went 
> on to explain how it works for ESE!Snape as well. That's the beauty 
> of the situation - he was certainly a double agent, but *whose* 
> agent? Did he cunningly infiltrate the Order, or did he turn 
> against LV, like DD said? You're the one who seems to be using the 
> definition to try and resolve the debate, something I wouldn't dare 
> attempt ;)
<snip>

Dana:
No, you weren't but providing that definition indicates to me that 
you did not understand the concept of what is actually meant by it.  
Double agent does not apply to DDM. If Snape is DDM then he can only 
be a triple agent but not a double agent by this definition because 
we as a reader only get the view point as DD being the one that send 
Snape to LV making DD the controlling and LV the target organization. 
I am not trying to resolve the debate what I'm trying to resolve is 
understanding the meaning of what being a double agent stands for and 
it is not some romantic label you can put on someone. A double agent 
is a double crosser someone that pretends to work for the side 
sending him but actually working for the side he is send to. 

JMHO

Dana