Prince/Pince Re: Reason Dumbledore trusted Snape

[va32h]

No: HPFGUIDX 171760

You'll have to forgive me if I don't respond further - this post will 
bring me to the daily max...

houyhnhnm:
 
Madam Pince is described as thin, vulture-like with 
a shriveled, sunken face and a hooked nose.  All we 
know of Eileen Prince's appearance is that she was 
skinny, had heavy brows, a long pallid face and a 
countenance both sullen and cross.  The shape of her 
features is not described.  I don't see anything in 
these descriptions that precludes they're being of 
the same person, especially after the passage of 
possibly as much as 50 years.  

va32h:

But there's nothing to suggest she *is* the same person either. 
Scabbers was always described as missing a toe - well before we had 
the rest of the clues which made that missing toe significant. JKR 
could have never commented on Scabbers' toes at all, only bringing 
up, after we know that Pettigrew is missing a finger, "oh by the way 
Scabbers is missing a toe." But again - that's not how she does 
things - her clues are of inclusion, not omission. 
 
houyhnhnm:

The only example you give for Rowling's "previously known 
method" is that of Aberforth.  I can think of at least one 
example of a passage in which she makes connections between 
two scenes or characters by using similar language to 
describe them.  One is the way in which Dumbledore's 
death is foreshadowed by the description of the dead 
unicorn in PS.  >>Its long slender legs were stuck out 
at odd angles where it had fallen and its mane was 
spread pearly-white on the dark leaves<< Now Dumbledore. 
>>Dumbledore's eyes were closed: but for the strange 
angles of his arms and legs, he might have been sleeping<< 
We don't need to told that his silver hair was spread out 
on the dark ground.  We can see it without being told.   
There is also the description of Harry asleep against the 
glass in his bedroom with his glasses askew that mirrors 
the image of Dumbledore dead.  Then there is the similarity 
of language to describe Harry's feeling of revulsion and 
self-hatred in the cave and the look on Snape's face on 
the tower.  We don't know the meaning of that yet, but I 
feel very confident that it has a meaning.  It was not a 
matter of Rowling being unable to think of new words.

va32h:

No - in my first post on this subject I referenced Aberforth, RAB, 
Scabbers/Pettigrew and Fake!Moody as examples of how JKR gives out 
clues. Aberforth and Regulus are examples of a mystery revealed over 
multiple books and Pettigrew/Moody are examples of a mystery brought 
up and resolved in one book. Pince/Prince fits neither of those 
patterns. I am not going to repeat myself, you'll have to look up my 
orginal post. 

While I agree that Harry's look of revulsion in the cave is intended 
to mirror Snape's look of revulsion on the tower, I don't agree that 
the dead unicorn is intended to be a clue to Dumbledore's death, or 
that Harry's having fallen asleep on the window is related to 
Dumbledore's death.

In the case of the unicorn - the only thing similiar in those 
descriptions is the use of "angles" to describe the position of the 
legs. You say yourself that Rowling *doesn't* describe Dumbledore's 
hair as being spread out like the unicorn mane, even though she 
possibly could. Again, a clue of omission. No, I don't think JKR 
expected her readers to assume that Dumbledore's hair was spread out 
like the unicorn's mane was five books ago. She doesn't even expect 
us to remember that Sirius' brother is named Regulus, even though we 
learned that just one book previously. 

I suppose I could buy that Dumbledore's death is similar to the 
unicorn's death - both were killed because the killer was in 
desperate circumstances. Both were noble creatures. Killing a unicorn 
is considered especially repugnant, and obviously everyone but the DE 
consider killing Dumbledore especially appalling. 

But foreshadowing and imagery are not clues. We don't re-read the 
passage with the dead unicorn and immediately think "of course! This 
is clearly a clue that Dumbledore is eventually killed by Snape." 
Although when we find out that Scabbers is really Peter, we do 
think "of course! That's why Scabbers started losing his hair and 
acting odd when he heard Sirius had escaped Azkaban. That's why the 
Sneakoscope went off on the train, it was near Scabbers. That's why 
Crookshanks kept chasing him. That's why Scabbers has always had that 
missing toe."

Do you see the difference? 

Fake Moody isn't hinted at through similar language, or imagery, it's 
hinted at by having Barty Crouch's name appear on the Marauder's Map 
in a place where Fake!Moody happened to be. 

That Lupin is a werewolf isn't hinted at by describing him in ways 
that connote wolves, it's hinted at by 1) the most obvious name in 
all of Potterverse (except possibly Fenrir Greyback) 2) Having his 
boggart be a full moon 3) having him drink a potion at certain times 
of the month 4) Having him go missing at certain times of the month 
and 5) having Snape assign an essay on how to identify a werewolf.

Or Hermione and the time turner. JKR flat out shows us Hermione 
intending to be two places at once when we see her exam schedule. 

Jo likes to surprise her readers, but not trick them. She plays fair. 
All her surprises are, in retrospect, entirely possible for even the 
casual reader to figure out. The Pince/Prince theory depends so much 
on specific interpretations of words and events that are not given 
any especial meaning - it is unlikely that even devoted readers would 
pick up on it, much less casual ones.  

And as much as I like JKR and her writing, I would disagree that she 
doesn't sometimes run out of words. In GoF, I remember that she 
constantly used the word "navel". Harry saw Cho and felt a swooping 
sensation behind his navel. Travelling via Portkey was described 
(repeatedly) as feeling a hook behind his navel. Doesn't Harry know 
any synonyms for navel? 

In OoTP, Ron started constantly using the word "mate" despite never 
previously having done so.  

Now of course in the unlikely event that I am wrong, and Eileen is 
Irma, I will of course be changing my username and disavowing any 
knowledge of this va32h person and her complete failure to grasp the 
author. But in all honesty, I'm not going to spend much time thinking 
up potential new user names. 

va32h