It's Guilty!DD all over again (was: New poll for HPforGrownups TBAY: ESE!DD

[Talisman]

No: HPFGUIDX 171970

Before we start, let me explain that AutoCorrect is dead set on 
rendering lizzyben as lazybones.  I keep changing it back, and it 
keeps *correcting* me, so if lazybones shows up anywhere, blame Bill 
Gates, pas moi.  Heck, go ahead and blame him for any errors.  ;o)

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizzyben04" <lizzyben04 at ...> 
wrote:

>  
> lizzyben:
>snip<
> Basically, I think that DD has been using Harry as part of an 
intricate & complex 
> plan that is *not* in Harry's best interests. >snip< 

Talisman:
You might be interested in my vintage version: Guilty!DD.  Some of 
the more scandalous entries date from  July 3, 2003, see 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/66983 , et seq.

I could also say, see my posts generally.  Often each post deals with 
some specific phase of  The Plan, however, one of the posts that 
aggregates various parts is   
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/159930 , from 
October 2006.  
It starts out all HBP, but goes back to other topics.

As to Harry's best interest.  I've stated in various post, likely the 
easiest to access is this short one from January 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/163065 that DD is 
a god substitute---displaced --because our genre is not mythology 
proper (the particular plot thread at issue is quest Romance)--but 
serving in the role, from a literary perspective.  

Recently NPR made available a previously unreleased section of an 
old, 1998 interview, in which Rowling seems to agree.  Go to this 
page: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11935611  
then select  the last link ,*Her Favorite Characters
etc.,* from the 
1998 interview link inset to hear Rowling say it, herself.    

JKR: *
he's almost godlike, isn't he?*

I expect that, rather than pretending  that bad things don't happen 
to *innocent* people, Rowling is going to offer us the hope that 
everything, no matter how awful, works to some good end.  That's the 
only way to resolve the *epitome of goodness* business  with *almost 
godlike DD's* outrageous behavior.

Personally, I enjoy Guilty!DD.  I just love the old scoundrel. 

He's far more exciting than the twinkly old fool.  Plus, he's 
justified by the text, whereas the twinkly crowd has to keep 
complaining of plot holes and/or constructing Rube Goldberg's to 
explain how DD *wasn't* involved. 

> lizzyben
> First, I think DD arranged the events at Godric's Hollow in order 
to 
> defeat LV & get a Chosen One w/special powers - 

Talisman:
Close enough, though we have to watch that word: defeat.  Also, I 
believe DD actually *chose* Harry.  Offering Neville as an option was 
merely  DD's  way of verifying what he already anticipated, i.e. that 
LV would prefer Harry.

See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82031 for 
discussion of how GH worked into some future aspects of the plan, and 
mention that the plan is far older than Harry.

Lizzyben:
>he did this by first leaking the prophecy, 

Talisman:
Well, go back a bit further; DD is the very *author* of both 
prophesies:
Again, see e.g.  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/159930 .

In the process of this reply, I was reminded that I owed Scarah a 
post, dating from her February post  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/163826 .  

My reply deals with Prophecies and Purposes, and has now been posted 
at:  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/171960

Lizzyben:
>helping Lily w/ancient blood magic as a Plan B if they are 
discovered, 

Talisman:
I don't think this was Plan B.  DD created LV's interest in Harry, 
knew Wormtail was the spy, and happily allowed Sirius to go to the 
pokey.  Moreover, the effects of GH continue to support so many other 
phases of The Plan, that it's clear it all happened as Guilty!DD 
intended.

Still, there is no doubt, Lily had been instructed in what she had to 
do:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/163793

 >Lizzyben: then alerting LV of the Potter's secret 
> location. 

Talisman: You mean allowing Wormtail to take care of this detail, 
don't you?  Not that Wormtail actually knew he was part of DD's plan, 
they never do
.

lizzyben:
>He kept the invisibility cloak so that the Potters  wouldn't be able 
to hide Harry beneath it. (JKR's important unasked question). 

Talisman:
Indeed, DD probably had it lent to someone else, someone who can't be 
invisible at will. <veg> And, while we see in OoP that lending rare 
ICs to other Order members is an established custom, you can be sure 
DD knew it would be out of Potter hands the night LV came knocking.

lizzyben:
 >When LV attacks Harry, Lily's ancient magic protects 
> Harry, causing the AK to rebound on LV & leave Harry w/special 
> powers - just as DD intended. 

Talisman: I think the burning skin came directly from the 
*sacrifice.*  Whatever blood protection (heretofore unused) comes 
with living at the Dursley's (which must now come into play before 
July 31, or never) was prepared by DD post -GH, using Lily's 
sacrificed blood  as one of the ingredients. 

The bouncing AK and the squirt of Dark Wizard juice that effect Harry 
are more likely explained by DD making a HX of Harry--using the bit 
of LV's soul that was severed with Lily`s murder.  Or as I've said 
elsewhere: Voldemort did the murder, DD did the spell .  Of course, 
LV had no idea
.but he will. Just in time for it to save Harry's butt.

My original Hx post appeared on another site in October of 2005,  
but, I mentioned part of this in January 2007 in Dark Mirror Part I: 
Hairy as Lupin, which can be found at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/163728 .


lizzyben: 
> DD needed this "chosen one" to be loyal to him & ready to fight. So 
> he placed Harry w/the Dursleys, knowing that they wouldn't care 
> about what happened to Harry, or interfere w/DD's Plan. DD let 
> Sirius stay in Azkaban, knowing he was innocent, to get Harry's 
> legal guardian out of the way. Because the Dursleys were so 
> abusive, DD knew that Harry would be grateful & thankful that 
> DD "rescued" him from this abusive home, & see Hogwarts as his real 
> home. This ensured that he would be loyal & willing to fight for 
> DD's cause from then on out. The blood protection thing was mostly 
> just an excuse. 

Talisman:
 Yep.  Harry is DD's product.  Lots of people have discussed this 
since the beginning of this group.

As for the blood protection, which hasn't been invoked at all in 
books 1-6, I've never found it a compelling basis for keeping Harry 
at the Dursley's all those years.

Since he started at  Hogwarts--when Lv came back for a visit--the 
maximum time it might be used is the two summer months of vacation: 
July and August.

We know that Harry spends part of that time other places: the Burrow, 
Diagon Alley, The QWC, Grimauld Place: so even less than that.  Year 
6 he was only at Number 4 for two weeks.

Add to that, that when he IS home, he stays outside--which also means 
outside the protection--as much as possible.  

You're really down to very little time--and that never used to date.  

Even if it proves useful in Harry's 17th year, DD could have 
reestablished Harry there at a later date
and provided more oversight 
(as Snape did when he sent the Order members at the end of OoP--
thanks to what he saw in Harry's memories) except that DD *wanted* 
Harry to have the Dursley experience. 

Can't have another *pampered little prince* (OoP 837) read here: 
James Potter. 

Sirius's manipulation had other purposes, as well.  Timing is 
everything, and DD brought Sirius out, let him establish a limited 
relationship with Harry, and then bumped him off for specific 
reasons. 

 Happily, Rowling says she'll shed more light on this in DH.

See, e.g. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67142 
although I no longer expect, or want, much in the way of  Harry's 
free agency.

By the way, my pal, annemehr, has been asking what will happen when 
Harry finds out what DD has been up to, since the early days of 
Guilty!DD, back in 2003.

lizzyben:
> He's also arranged things so that LV would use Harry's blood for 
his 
> resurrection. Right before Harry's due back at Hogwarts, DD fetches 
> Vapor Voldie back from Albania via Quirrel. DD also moves the Stone 
> of immortality to Hogwarts as LV-bait. When LV tries to get it, DD 
> ensures that Harry is there, too. LV realizes he can't touch or 
harm 
> Harry & flees; now terrified of Harry's powers. DD lets Vapor 
> Voldie go on purpose. DD destroys the Stone - knowing that LV will 
> now have to resort to a specific magical ritual to ressurrect. 

Talisman:
And ensures that LV will insist on Harry's blood for the recipe.
All covered in the distant past.  See, e.g.: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/81961 , Sept 2003
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/159930 , October 
2006
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/159935 , October 
2006

lizzyben: 
> In GOF, DD knows LV is back, because DD had previously purchased 
the 
> Riddle House. He knows the ritual that LV will use to resurrect & 
> has manipulated LV into choosing Harry for the "blood of the 
> enemy."  LV thinks that using Harry's blood will remove the 
> special "Can't touch" blood protection that Harry had in SS - just 
> as DD intended. So when Harry tells DD about LV's reason for 
> choosing Harry for the ritual, DD gets
> a *Gleam of triumph*. All is going according to his Plan. 

Talisman:
Natch.  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/131961 
July 2005.

Lizzyben:
>This  means that DD knew Fake!Moody was a Death Eater, & knew what 
would 
> happen when Harry entered the TWT. When Crouch Sr. tried to warn 
DD, 
> DD called Fake!Moody, alone, to search the Hogwarts grounds for 
him, 
> knowing Fake!Moody would kill Crouch when he found him. DD *wanted* 
> the Death Eaters to be able to capture Harry. 

Talisman:
In Message 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83543 , October 
2003,  Talisman wrote:
> You also have to join the Graveyard Scene to the rest of the book.
> If you take all the evidence in GoF that DD planned for the
> Graveyard Scene and was totally on to Fake!Moody, it negates the
> possibility that he didn't have protections in place.
>snip<
>DD was on to Fake!Moody before he showed up at Hogwarts.

Don't forget that DD instigated the TWT, knowing full well that LV 
was en route and looking for a way to get Harry's blood.  DD also 
knew LV would believe his *jinx* would require a new DADA (though DD 
had long since disposed of LV's  version of any jinx), so LV would 
plan to *get in* via the year 4  DADA professor--ergo DD called in 
the old warrior Moody to take the hit.  When the dustbins went off, 
DD knew LV had taken the DADA bait.  Game on.

Also, you can bet DD dropped a little bug in Bertha's nosy ear--
knowing she'd high-tail it for Albania--all primed with TWT info.

Add her to DD's body count.

lizzyben:
> It seems like using Harry's blood created some special effects on 
> LV - eg. he can't create more horcruxes, & possibly other side 
> benefits. 

Talisman:
I don't think Harry's blood is what precludes additional Hx 
manufacture.  As we see when Riddle is questioning Slughorn in HBP, 
there are limitations--Riddle's concern was with just how many one 
wizard could make.  I'm betting the 7 part soul LV has now is pushing 
the envelope.

But you can keep this part of  ESE!DD, as original to you.  ; )

Certainly there are other benefits, to be seen in DH.

lizzyben:
>In OOTP, DD lures both Harry & LV to the MOM so that LV 
> can possess him. This also increases Harry's strengths against LV - 
> LV can no longer posess him or share visions. Sirius is killed, 
> probably by DD or on DD's orders; Sirius was getting restless & too 
> protective of Harry. 

Talisman:
See Guilty!DD--in spades (except that Sirius was always for the chop--
he was trouble before Book 5)--  starting with  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/66983  , July 
2003,et seq.

Please note, I explained the benefit before Rowling did.

For additional exploration of the prophecy orb as bait, see 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80164 , September 
2003.

lizzyben:
>In HBP, DD tries to inflame Harry's hatred & 
> need for revenge in order to get the weapon ready, & this is 
> partially why he makes Harry witness his death. And etc.


Talisman:
A mighty big part of why he makes Harry witness his death---as I 
explained in Dark Mirror Part I: Hairy as Lupin , 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/163728 January 
2007.
 
Lizzyben:
> DD is sacrificing Harry's happiness & welfare for some distant 
> greater good that *only* DD is allowed to see. He is *using* Harry 
> as a pawn, & the traumas Harry endures are all part of increasing 
> Harry's fitness for DD's larger purpose. The worst part is, DD 
> actually seems to love Harry (against his will), yet he is still 
> willing to do this. It's all for THE PLAN, the noble, brilliant 
plan 
> that DD never sees fit to share w/Harry, even though his life may 
> depend upon it. Is that Plan worth it? I don't know, but I suspect 
> not. No goal is worth this much evil. Is defeating LV even the 
> actual plan? I'm not sure any more. DD could have taken out LV many 
> times himself, but he does not. 

Talisman:
Well, we'll just have to allow JKR to wrap it up.  As I've mentioned 
in various posts, from a literary perspective, DD is a displaced 
god.  The Plan may well be Rowling's optimistic metaphysical 
assertion that all of the evil things that happen in the world, 
happen for good reason, rather than as random, useless, 
occurrences.   

She seems to posit a God, and usually people who do so believe that 
God is in charge.  There's no denying that a lot of awful things 
happen to people, God being in charge, notwithstanding.  

I'm sure some of the local proselytizers will want to jump in here 
and talk about unauthorized apple snacks--and then we'll have to 
review the felix culpa, and so on. 

But, as the evidence points to Rowling envisioning an entity that is 
both the epitome of goodness and the choreographer of so much that 
ends in death and suffering,  I'm guessing that her iteration of God 
doesn't get off the hook because of anything Lily and James had for 
lunch.

No one has to agree with her metaphysics, but unless she does 
something to radically alter the situation in DH, that's where the 
subtext takes us.

lizzyben:
> By my count, DD is responsible for at least four murders, probably 
> more - the Potters, Sirius, Crouch Sr., Cedric, & (indirectly) all 
> of LV's new victims. 

Talisman:
Don't be so conservative.  DD's Plan goes back at least to 
Voldemort's childhood.  You can add in all of Riddle/Voldemort's old 
victims too.  

As for named casualties, don't forget Quirrell (maybe even Nicholas 
and Perenelle Flamel--who might have kept their stone out of the 
limelight);  Myrtle, since DD knew what he was bringing to Hogwarts; 
Bertha, Broderick Bode, and all the other people we've heard about: 
MadameBones, Emmeline Vance, etc.  

In addition to death, and grief, he's played a role in 
petrifications, Imperiouses, Crucios, other imprisonments (e.g. 
Hagrid, Sturgis Podmore, Stan Shunpike), and various other maimings 
(Arthur's snake attack, Greyback's werewolf bite victims, etc.)     

There really are too many to count. 

And, oh yeah, and his own demise, as well.

Lizzyben:
>He's caused Harry to have a miserable 
> childhood, allowed him to be abused, tortured & traumatized, and 
> killed the adults who actually loved Harry. DD exploits, 
> manipulates, & sacrifices people for his goals, and all indications 
> are that he expected to sacrifice Harry, as well. So yeah, however 
> noble DD's ultimate goal might be, he is surely Ever So Evil from 
> Harry's point of view. And mine, too. 

Ah, now you're into deep metaphysics.  ; ) 

As long as I'm above page, I think DD's a perfect hoot.  Wouldn't 
change him for all the gold in Gringotts.

Relax and enjoy.

Talisman, long on record with Guilty!DD, signing off for the 
Fellowship of the D.U.S.T. (Dumbledore Undercover Surveillance Team), 
posthumous division.

PS
I never post to TBay, because it describes itself as a forum for 
subversive readings--and I maintain that my readings conform to what 
the author wrote.