It's Guilty!DD all over again (was: New poll for HPforGrownups TBAY: ESE!DD

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 172013

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" <talisman22457 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Before we start, let me explain that AutoCorrect is dead set on 
> rendering lizzyben as lazybones.  I keep changing it back, and it 
> keeps *correcting* me, so if lazybones shows up anywhere, blame 
Bill 
> Gates, pas moi.  Heck, go ahead and blame him for any errors.  ;o)
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizzyben04" <lizzyben04@> 
> wrote:
> 
> >  
> > lizzyben:
> >snip<
> > Basically, I think that DD has been using Harry as part of an 
> intricate & complex 
> > plan that is *not* in Harry's best interests. >snip< 
> 
> Talisman:
> You might be interested in my vintage version: Guilty!DD.  Some of 
> the more scandalous entries date from  July 3, 2003, see 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/66983 , et seq.


lizzyben:

Look, I'm sure that most or all of this stuff has been tossed around 
in the past, and I'm sure that other people have dared to call 
Dumbledore Ever So Evil. My ideas probably aren't very original or 
worthwhile, but they are my own, borne out of my attempt to 
understand why DD drives me straight up a wall. I've gotten a 
surface understanding of how puppetmaster DD operates, but no where 
NEAR the level of detail & complexity you've outlined here. Those 
posts are brilliant, even though your vision of DD is far darker 
than even I'd have suspected. I've only fallen a few feet down the 
rabbit hole, but you've gone all the way to the bottom. 

Talisman:
> <snip> from the 
> 1998 interview link inset to hear Rowling say it, herself.    
> 
> JKR: *
he's almost godlike, isn't he?*
> 
> I expect that, rather than pretending  that bad things don't 
happen 
> to *innocent* people, Rowling is going to offer us the hope that 
> everything, no matter how awful, works to some good end.  That's 
the 
> only way to resolve the *epitome of goodness* business  with 
*almost 
> godlike DD's* outrageous behavior.
> 

lizzyben:

And here I thought JKR just said that "epitome of goodness" stuff to 
stop debate on the subject! That's an interesting interpretation of 
DD - he'd be like one of the Greek gods, capricious & all-powerful. 
Maybe we'll even find out he is god-like or supernatural, which 
would certainly explain a lot. My problem is that right now, DD is 
not a god, but a human being, and a human being that exercises that 
personal level of power & judgment over others' life & death can 
only be called a tyrant. DD acts like a god when it suits him, yet 
he also seems to want Harry's love like a grandfather. It's that 
inconsistency w/Harry that truly creeps me out. 

So, as a character, he's horrible, but as a metaphysical symbol of 
God's willingness to allow evil on earth, he's promising. I hope 
that JKR does have some similar message in mind. 

Talisman:
> Personally, I enjoy Guilty!DD.  I just love the old scoundrel. 
> 
> He's far more exciting than the twinkly old fool.  Plus, he's 
> justified by the text, whereas the twinkly crowd has to keep 
> complaining of plot holes and/or constructing Rube Goldberg's to 
> explain how DD *wasn't* involved. 

lizzyben:

Personally, I hate puppetmaster/evil/guilty DD, but I do hope that 
that's his real character. Because, as you point out, the character 
otherwise dissolves into a series of plot holes & deus ex machinas. 
And it seems odd that DD's character, alone, would be so 
inconsistent when the other characters are so carefully drawn. DD 
simply can't be the kindly, twinkly mentor that JKR is attempting to 
sell us. 

> > lizzyben
> > First, I think DD arranged the events at Godric's Hollow in 
order 
> to 
> > defeat LV & get a Chosen One w/special powers - 
> 
> Talisman:
> Close enough, though we have to watch that word: defeat.  Also, I 
> believe DD actually *chose* Harry.  Offering Neville as an option 
was 
> merely  DD's  way of verifying what he already anticipated, i.e. 
that 
> LV would prefer Harry.
> 
> See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/82031 for 
> discussion of how GH worked into some future aspects of the plan, 
and 
> mention that the plan is far older than Harry.
> 
> Lizzyben:
> >he did this by first leaking the prophecy, 
> 
> Talisman:
> Well, go back a bit further; DD is the very *author* of both 
> prophesies:
> Again, see e.g.  
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/159930 .
> 

lizzyben:

How do you know this? I considered this, but assuming Snape, 
Trelawney & the 2 DDs were actually present, it seems difficult to 
fake something like this. What would DD use? Imperio? Is Trelawney 
just pretending to enter a trance (unlikely, IMO, DD wouldn't let 
her in on the prophecy if he could help it). 
 
> Lizzyben:
> >helping Lily w/ancient blood magic as a Plan B if they are 
> discovered, 
> 
> Talisman:
> I don't think this was Plan B.  DD created LV's interest in Harry, 
> knew Wormtail was the spy, and happily allowed Sirius to go to the 
> pokey.  Moreover, the effects of GH continue to support so many 
other 
> phases of The Plan, that it's clear it all happened as Guilty!DD 
> intended.
> 
> Still, there is no doubt, Lily had been instructed in what she had 
to 
> do:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/163793

Lizzyben:

I meant a Plan B as pitched to the Potters - DD would always know 
that this plan B would be the actual result once the SK is leaked. 
And based on the delicate thought/knew dance that JKR uses in her 
interview above, maybe Lily knew as well. BTW, that kind of 
linguistic hair-splitting is one of the reasons DD drives me 
straight up a wall. He totally misleads Harry about the meaning of 
the prophecy, yet can backtrack & later claim that Harry simply 
*misunderstood*.

Maybe you can enlighten me here - what exactly *is* The Plan? What 
is Harry's role here? All I can tell is that it involves the 
prophecy, Godric's Hollow, & Harry's probable sacrifice to some 
higher goal. And it seems likely that Harry's role is as bait, patsy 
or pawn, as per most of DD's schemes. But I'm not even sure that 
defeating LV is the actual goal of DD's plan. It seems much larger 
than that, because DD could have taken out LV himself in SS. One 
excuse is if DD knew that only Harry could defeat LV - but if you 
believe that he wrote the prophecy, that wouldn't be a valid reason. 
So what is DD really up to? I can't think of many goals that would 
justify the amount of suffering that his plan has inflicted thus 
far. (Beyond the meta-textual goal, the actual character DD's goal)

>  >Lizzyben: then alerting LV of the Potter's secret 
> > location. 
> 
> Talisman: You mean allowing Wormtail to take care of this detail, 
> don't you?  Not that Wormtail actually knew he was part of DD's 
plan, 
> they never do
.

lizzyben:

Yep. DD's complicity would be too obvious if DD were the Secret 
Keeper - but IMO he manipulated the Potters into choosing Wormtail 
as SK instead, knowing he would run straight to LV w/the 
information. Sort of laundering the betrayal through a third party. 
At first, I wondered if the Potters had begun to suspect DD's real 
motives, which was why they selected a friend to be SK instead. But 
now I think it's even more likely that DD actually *planted* those 
doubts in their minds so that they would choose a known LV spy 
instead. Sneaky. 

> lizzyben:
> >He kept the invisibility cloak so that the Potters  wouldn't be 
able 
> to hide Harry beneath it. (JKR's important unasked question). 
> 
> Talisman:
> Indeed, DD probably had it lent to someone else, someone who can't 
be 
> invisible at will. <veg> And, while we see in OoP that lending 
rare 
> ICs to other Order members is an established custom, you can be 
sure 
> DD knew it would be out of Potter hands the night LV came knocking.

lizzyben:

And who is that someone else? Are you suggesting that someone else 
was at Godric's Hollow under the IC? Basically, I think JKR's 
question is a huge red flag that DD was involved in the events at 
Godric's Hollow. The Order members have other IC cloaks to use - 
there would be *no* good reason to take the IC from a family in 
imminent danger from a psychotic wizard. The Potters needed that 
cloak to shield Harry if LV ever discovered their location, & DD 
wanted to make sure that they didn't have that extra protection. If 
he's going to go through the trouble of orchestrating the attack, he 
wants to make sure that a Chosen One is created in the deal. 

This also suggests that the Potters themselves weren't aware of the 
Plan, or that they might have to sacrifice themselves to accomplish 
it. You seem to think that the Potters voluntarily sacrificed their 
lives for the cause, but IMO DD's actions seem to show that this was 
actually a planned murder. The Potters might have known about a 
possible sacrificial Plan B, but DD was going to ensure that they 
had to use it. 

> lizzyben:
>  >When LV attacks Harry, Lily's ancient magic protects 
> > Harry, causing the AK to rebound on LV & leave Harry w/special 
> > powers - just as DD intended. 
> 
> Talisman: 
> The bouncing AK and the squirt of Dark Wizard juice that effect 
Harry 
> are more likely explained by DD making a HX of Harry--using the 
bit 
> of LV's soul that was severed with Lily`s murder.  Or as I've said 
> elsewhere: Voldemort did the murder, DD did the spell.  Of 
course, 
> LV had no idea
.but he will. Just in time for it to save Harry's 
butt.

lizzyben:

I wish we knew more about what was actually involved in creating a 
Horcrux. Could it be accidental? Because I tend to think that Harry 
did get a Hx, by accident, after the curse rebounded. Would the 
spell have to be done at the time or later? Could a third party do 
the incantation (it seems like it'd need to be the Horcrux-er.) Are 
you saying that an invisible DD was actually there inside GH, 
waiting to do the spell? Assuming that this is true, why do it? The 
Hx doesn't offer blood protection, only (maybe) protection against 
an AK. And if DD just wanted someone who could AK LV, he could've 
done that ages ago. What special power does the Hx offer? I wonder 
if it would actually evaporate all of the other Hxes as well. 
Horcrux Harry would also explain why DD seems so certain that Harry 
will die for the cause, so I'm inclined to believe it.  

> lizzyben: 
> > DD needed this "chosen one" to be loyal to him & ready to fight. 
So 
> > he placed Harry w/the Dursleys, knowing that they wouldn't care 
> > about what happened to Harry, or interfere w/DD's Plan. DD let 
> > Sirius stay in Azkaban, knowing he was innocent, to get Harry's 
> > legal guardian out of the way. Because the Dursleys were so 
> > abusive, DD knew that Harry would be grateful & thankful that 
> > DD "rescued" him from this abusive home, & see Hogwarts as his 
real 
> > home. This ensured that he would be loyal & willing to fight for 
> > DD's cause from then on out. The blood protection thing was 
mostly 
> > just an excuse. 
> 
> Talisman:
>  Yep.  Harry is DD's product.  Lots of people have discussed this 
> since the beginning of this group.
> 
> As for the blood protection, which hasn't been invoked at all in 
> books 1-6, I've never found it a compelling basis for keeping 
Harry 
> at the Dursley's all those years.
<snipping useless blood protection>
> Can't have another *pampered little prince* (OoP 837) read here: 
> James Potter. 

lizzyben:

Or maybe the real benefit of the blood protection was simply that LV 
was too terrified to try to attack Harry there after the events of 
SS. But yeah, I think the Durseleys' were mainly just to ensure that 
Harry remain a loyal minion to DD.

Talisman:
> Sirius's manipulation had other purposes, as well.  Timing is 
> everything, and DD brought Sirius out, let him establish a limited 
> relationship with Harry, and then bumped him off for specific 
> reasons. 
> 
>  Happily, Rowling says she'll shed more light on this in DH.
> 
> See, e.g. 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67142 

lizzyben:
I don't really buy this. If DD really just wanted to spring Sirius 
in order to use him as bait to lure Harry to the MOM, it again seems 
like a lot of work for little reason. Harry has a "saving people 
thing," and would presumably try to help any of the Order members or 
friends who he saw in danger. Even if DD brought Sirius & Harry 
together, there's no guarantee that they'd even get along, much less 
that Sirius would become the one person Harry would save. It seems 
risky when DD could always use one of Harry's friends as bait 
instead. (Can't believe I'm saying this stuff). Plus, if DD really 
wanted Sirius & Harry to bond, he'd have let Sirius stay at Hogwarts 
instead of keeping the two apart throughout most of GOF & OOTP. 


Talisman:
> although I no longer expect, or want, much in the way of  Harry's 
> free agency.

lizzyben:

I do have faith in Harry's ability to cut the puppetstrings. Because 
if he does not, he will die. And it's one thing to die as an 
independent noble act, & quite another to die as a pawn in one 
wizard's Machievellian game. I don't think JKR will do that to 
Harry. If puppetmaster DD is real, I expect Harry to learn at least 
part of the truth before the end of the novel. And my best hope is 
that Snape & Harry can collaborate to find a way to avoid the fate 
that DD has planned for him.

lizzyben:
> In GOF, DD knows LV is back, because DD had previously purchased
the
> Riddle House. He knows the ritual that LV will use to resurrect &
> has manipulated LV into choosing Harry for the "blood of the
> enemy." LV thinks that using Harry's blood will remove the
> special "Can't touch" blood protection that Harry had in SS - just
> as DD intended. So when Harry tells DD about LV's reason for
> choosing Harry for the ritual, DD gets
> a *Gleam of triumph*. All is going according to his Plan..
Talisman:
> Don't forget that DD instigated the TWT, knowing full well that LV 
> was en route and looking for a way to get Harry's blood.  DD also 
> knew LV would believe his *jinx* would require a new DADA (though 
DD 
> had long since disposed of LV's  version of any jinx), so LV would 
> plan to *get in* via the year 4  DADA professor--ergo DD called in 
> the old warrior Moody to take the hit.  When the dustbins went 
off, 
> DD knew LV had taken the DADA bait.  Game on.

lizzyben:

Seems like a lot of trouble to go through, for both sides. If DD 
knew that the DE's would infiltrate through a DADA professor, why 
bother w/the TWT at all? The DE could easily transport Harry via any 
kind of Portkey. Why didn't Moody just give Harry a pencil Portkey 
or something instead? Seems like a plot hole.

Talisman:
> Also, you can bet DD dropped a little bug in Bertha's nosy ear--
> knowing she'd high-tail it for Albania--all primed with TWT info.
> 
> Add her to DD's body count.

lizzyben: 

No problem. The only thing is, I'm not sure how DD would know that 
Bertha Jorkins knew about Crouch Jr.'s rescue. Crouch Sr. placed a 
powerful memory charm on her, so he couldn't use Legimency to find 
out the truth from her (although he might have used Crouch Sr. 
instead). And DD doesn't have the ability to dispatch Jorkins the 
way he could control Quirrel's movements - so how could he make her 
go to Albania?

> lizzyben:
> > It seems like using Harry's blood created some special effects 
on 
> > LV - eg. he can't create more horcruxes, & possibly other side 
> > benefits. 
> 
> Talisman:
> I don't think Harry's blood is what precludes additional Hx 
> manufacture.  As we see when Riddle is questioning Slughorn in 
HBP, 
> there are limitations--Riddle's concern was with just how many one 
> wizard could make.  I'm betting the 7 part soul LV has now is 
pushing 
> the envelope.

lizzyben:

Maybe. But I think that DD had to have a surefire reason for 
entrusting that Hx knowledge w/Harry. Harry can't use Occlumency & 
shares a direct pipeline to LV. It seems like it would be too risky 
to allow Harry to know about this unless DD was *sure* that no more 
Hx could be created. Seven mught be "pushing it", but that alone 
doesn't guarantee that LV won't create more. So, maybe using Hx 
Harry's blood at the ressurection prevented LV from making more. 
It's obvious that DD wants LV to use Harry's blood, but we still 
haven't seen the benefit of it - why was it so important? 

> lizzyben:
> >In OOTP, DD lures both Harry & LV to the MOM so that LV 
> > can possess him. This also increases Harry's strengths against 
LV - 
> > LV can no longer posess him or share visions. Sirius is killed, 
> > probably by DD or on DD's orders; Sirius was getting restless & 
too 
> > protective of Harry. 
> 
> Talisman:
> See Guilty!DD--in spades (except that Sirius was always for the 
chop--
> he was trouble before Book 5)--  starting with  
>   , July 
> 2003,et seq.
> 

lizzyben:

Then why spring him? Sirius is a loose cannon - from DD's view 
better 
off safe in AZ than causing trouble in the Order. It seems like any 
benefit of a Sirius/Harry relationship is outweighed by the danger 
that Sirius will try to take guardianship of Harry away from DD, or 
raise hell about DD's plan for Harry. Or cause further turmoil w/the 
whole Snape/Sirius thing. I agree w/most of this, but the Sirius 
prison break just seems a step too far in terms of what DD would do 
(or want) compared to the benefit it gives him. 

Just in general, I disagree w/your contention that Snape is in on 
DD's schemes as a First Lieutenent. I'm fairly convinced that he is 
not, excepting the HBP AK, & even there DD probably just gave him 
the miminal information necessary. DD doesn't share information 
about the Plan with *anyone*. JKR said once that DD doesn't have any 
peers, any equals that he can interact with, & I agree. DD parsels 
out bits of 
info to Snape, Harry, Lupin, but no one gets the whole. Veteran 
Order members like Arthur Weaseley are left in the dark about what 
they are guarding, Harry isn't told about his prophecy, etc. I don't 
think that Snape is an equal partner who is putting on an act, but 
that he is often used (and manipulated) by DD as much as Harry & the 
other Order members are. IMO Snape undertook the Occlumency lessons 
in good faith; DD knew it would fail & ultimately open Harry's mind 
more. I don't think DD ever told Snape about his real plans for the 
SS - which is why Snape kept investigating on his own. I don't think 
that Snape knew that Crouch was impersonating Moody. IMO Snaoe 
really did have emotional meltdowns in POA & OOTP; anything Lily-
related does that to him. But I do agree that Snape often seems to 
be the only one who really looks out for Harry's interests; 
certainly DD does not. 


> Lizzyben:
> > DD is sacrificing Harry's happiness & welfare for some distant 
> > greater good that *only* DD is allowed to see. He is *using* 
Harry 
> > as a pawn, & the traumas Harry endures are all part of 
increasing 
> > Harry's fitness for DD's larger purpose. The worst part is, DD 
> > actually seems to love Harry (against his will), yet he is still 
> > willing to do this. It's all for THE PLAN, the noble, brilliant 
> plan 
> > that DD never sees fit to share w/Harry, even though his life 
may 
> > depend upon it. Is that Plan worth it? I don't know, but I 
suspect 
> > not. No goal is worth this much evil. Is defeating LV even the 
> > actual plan? I'm not sure any more. DD could have taken out LV 
many 
> > times himself, but he does not. 
> 
> Talisman:
> Well, we'll just have to allow JKR to wrap it up.  As I've 
mentioned 
> in various posts, from a literary perspective, DD is a displaced 
> god.  The Plan may well be Rowling's optimistic metaphysical 
> assertion that all of the evil things that happen in the world, 
> happen for good reason, rather than as random, useless, 
> occurrences.   
> No one has to agree with her metaphysics, but unless she does 
> something to radically alter the situation in DH, that's where the 
> subtext takes us.

lizzyben: 
I can accept that on a symbolic level, but IMO the actual person DD 
still needs to have a reason for his actions. Beyond teaching 
that "bad things happen to good people."

> lizzyben:
> > By my count, DD is responsible for at least four murders, 
probably 
> > more - the Potters, Sirius, Crouch Sr., Cedric, & (indirectly) 
all 
> > of LV's new victims. 
> 
> Talisman:
> Don't be so conservative.  DD's Plan goes back at least to 
> Voldemort's childhood.  You can add in all of Riddle/Voldemort's 
old 
> victims too.  
> 

Lizzyben:

*sigh* OK, my mind is a bit blown, but you think that DD actually 
intended for Riddle to become a psychotic Dark Lord? Or just that he 
is responsible through negligence? It's interesting that he later 
follows the same process for Harry.

Talisman:
> As for named casualties, don't forget Quirrell (maybe even 
Nicholas 
> and Perenelle Flamel--who might have kept their stone out of the 
> limelight);  Myrtle, since DD knew what he was bringing to 
Hogwarts; 
> Bertha, Broderick Bode, and all the other people we've heard 
about: 
> MadameBones, Emmeline Vance, etc.  
> 

lizzyben:

*ticking off on her fingers* - Frank Bryce, Karkaroff, Regulus, most 
of the original Order of the Phoenix...

Talisman:
> There really are too many to count. 

lizzyben:

Far too many. If DD intentionally set LV loose for the first war, 
he's responsible for a genocide. I do think that DD brought back LV 
for the second war, but still don't accept that DD intended to 
unleash LV & the Death Eaters in the first place. What good could it 
possibly serve? Maybe DD actually supported LV's agenda back in the 
day, or maybe he was also a Dark Wizard who turned "good" later on? 
(this explains his later acceptance of Snape). More possible 
evilness from DD. 

> Lizzyben:
> >He's caused Harry to have a miserable 
> > childhood, allowed him to be abused, tortured & traumatized, and 
> > killed the adults who actually loved Harry. DD exploits, 
> > manipulates, & sacrifices people for his goals, and all 
indications 
> > are that he expected to sacrifice Harry, as well. So yeah, 
however 
> > noble DD's ultimate goal might be, he is surely Ever So Evil 
from 
> > Harry's point of view. And mine, too. 
> Talisman:
> Ah, now you're into deep metaphysics.  ; ) 
> 
> As long as I'm above page, I think DD's a perfect hoot.  Wouldn't 
> change him for all the gold in Gringotts.
> Relax and enjoy.
> 

lizzyben:

Yeah, but would you want to join the Order of the Phonenix? I'm 
probably too emotionally invested in the other characters to really 
be amused about DD's schemes. It just makes me sad to see so many 
lives being broken & destroyed as DD's plan steamrolls on. (Yes, I 
know it's just fiction, usually). 

> Talisman, long on record with Guilty!DD, signing off for the 
> Fellowship of the D.U.S.T. (Dumbledore Undercover Surveillance 
Team), 
> posthumous division.

lizzyhen, saluting a master at the DD game.