Prophecies and Purposes ( was: What *Do* You know? Dumblodore Context

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 172147

>
> >Talisman:
> > I just go where the evidence takes me.
> 
> Eddie:
> 
> T'man, I'm sure you are a very nice fellow.  And I find your theory
> quite engaging. <snip>

Mike:
I'm sure she'll appreciate that!

> Eddie:
> Having said that, here's the fundamental problem I have with your
> theory: what is Dumbledore's motivation?  That he's Ever So Evil and
> that he, and not Voldemort is the real villain of the story?  I'm
> unconvinced.  Entertained by the notion, but unconvinced.

Mike:
Dumbledore's motivation is obviously in question, Dana and Carol have 
both called to task this aspect of Talisman's theory. But I call into 
question the motivations of the other characters in this supposed 
master plan.

Up until the night of the prophesy, we are looking at Dumbledore 
somehow manipulating only Tom Riddle. This is because we don't know 
much of what Tom/LV has done to the other characters in the story. 
But now DD has to manipulate lots of folks we know into the story we 
have read.

I'll leave out the problem of Dumbledore knowing James and Lily have 
conceived a boy, because he needs a couple that have "thrice defied" 
LV. Or did DD convince the Potters to get busy around Holloween 
of '79 and make sure you get a boy out of the deal. Ditto the 
Longbottoms. Heh, I guess I didn't leave it out. ;)

Let's start with Peter. "Pete, ole rat, get in there and spread 
rumors that Lupin is the traitor. Then just hang around with James 
and Sirius, I'll figure out how to make them make you their Secret 
Keeper. Then betray the secret to Voldemort, stop that cringing when 
I say his name." How exactly does DD manipulate Sirius to come up 
with the idea of making Peter the SK and the Potters to follow 
Sirius' dumb plan? Or does DD just recognize the inherent traitorness 
of Peter and trust that he will go to LV? But that's not much 
manipulating. And why does Peter want to spend his life as a fugitive 
instead of getting the all powerful Dumbledore to protect him?

Now, what does DD tell James and Lily to gain their cooperation in 
the plan? "Kids, Voldemort is going to come calling eventually, I'd 
like you James to futilely fight him and die. Lily, I'd like you to 
not defend yourself and make a sacrificial death protecting your son, 
it'll activate some major old magic, that will protect him." Yeah, 
I'm sure they'd go for that plan. Assuming, of course that Dumbledore 
can convince them of this plan instead of him just protecting them. 
But wait, they didn't trust DD, that's why they went with Sirius as 
SK, switching to Pete at the last minute. So they don't trust DD as 
their SK but they're perfectly willing to die for DD's master plan.

I'm sure Talisman has DD using a much more subtle method of getting 
the job done, but it all comes down to the same thing. Either DD 
manipulated things or he didn't, and Lily did her thing of her own 
free will. JKR has also told us that the deflected AK has *never* 
happened before. So we have to not only have a lying manipulative 
Dumbledore, we have to have him counting on something happening that 
has never happened before,... or JKR is lying to us.

This is only the start of the whole story. We have so many more 
characters acting in specific ways because of DD's manipulation, with 
no consideration for their motivations, or lack thereof. Snape's 
motivations, back story, et al becomes meaningless, he's simply 
acting his part according to Dumbledore's script. All the stuff 
between him and the Marauders, so what? 

And after all this, Dumbledore allows himself to be killed before the 
final act. Hmm, hell of a manipulator.

I ascribe to the theory that Dumbledore took advantage of Sybill's 
prophesy, what did he have to lose? But him making up the prophesy 
and manipulating all the characters into action,... it makes a 
mockery of the whole story.

Mike