LONG collection of DH related thoughts.

[va32h]

No: HPFGUIDX 172892

I think this is number 5 for me today, so I chose the longest 
possible post to reply to, with the most available topics to discuss!

<big snips, nonetheless>

Joe wrote:
 
Doe Patronus - How can two people have the same Patronus?

va32h replies:

I don't see any reason why two people *can't* have the same patronus. 
How would you know that the animal you desired for your patronus 
is "taken"? All the characters in the HP series have different 
Patronuses, which is I'm sure a literary convenience. 

Joe wrote:
> Neville - I had wished it had been Neville who got to Bellatrix 
> first. I found it a small letdown that it was Molly. He wouldn't 
> have had to AK her, mabe squirt bubotuber pus on the black mark 
> which proves poisonous...OK, I'll quit that.

va32h replies:

Neville's destruction of the snake is symbolically perfect. He is, 
essentially, the heir of Harry, taking up the mantle of resistance, 
finishing the job of destroying horcruxes that Harry set out to do, 
and proving worthy (as Harry was) of taking the Gryffindor sword. He 
is the other boy to whom the prophecy might have applied - and his 
actions in DH show that he would have been just as formidable an 
opponent as Harry. 

Molly killing Bellatrix is another kind of symbolism - Mother Molly 
destroying Barren Bella - the woman who claimed she would be proud to 
deliver up her sons to Voldemort (the very statement showing how 
truly ignorant she is of mother-love).

Joe wrote:
> Snape's Death - I never had an issue with Snape *becoming* good, 
> even heroic. (In fact, I called it.) But I have trouble believing 
> that Snape was ALWAYS true-blue once he decided to turn. I firmly 
> believe he deliberately sabotaged the Occlumency lessons, for 
> example. It was my thinking that Snape would have a more, um, clear 
> and unambiguous -- self-serving, selected pensieve memories do not 
> count -- moment of redemption. At best his redemption seems to have 
> been manifested gradually and too subtly to ring true. The death-by-
> Nagini struck me as clunky and contrived and constructed thus for 
> the express purpose of having the pensieve moment.

va32h replies:

Yes, I struggle with Snape's redemption too. But I do find his death-
by-snake very symbolic. Yes, it convenietly allows for a slow death, 
which gives Snape time to give Harry the memories, but it is also 
ironic (Potion master dies of poison!). But Snape being killed by a 
snake is, IMO, a metaphor for Snape's Slytherin side winning out over 
his loyalty to Lily. His life was effectively ended 18 years ago, 
when he chose Slytherin over Lily, Nagini is just finishing the job.  


Joe wrote: 
> Ron the Parselmouth - Clunky and clumsy device. Parseltongue is not 
> something learnable. IIRC, DD calls it a gift in COS. (Although, 
> it's funny that he faked it.)


va32h here:

Ugh! I agree, I hate this part! So silly and contrived. And, like all 
the plot holes in the book, so easily fixed! Why not just have Ron 
and Hermione tell Harry "we are going to nip down to the Chamber and 
see if that basilisk still has any venom. Wait five minutes, then 
send your Patronus down to the Chamber to say "open" in 
Parseltongue." Instead of worrying where Ron & Hermione are, Harry 
can worry about whether they are getting safely through the Chamber.

Joe wrote: 
> Peter P.'s Life Debt - Somewhat weakly dealt with. Like how he 
dies, though, as the end result of his own treachery.

va32h here:

Yeah, that was confusing. As best as I can figure, Voldemort cursed 
the hand so it would strangle Wormtail, if Wormtail ever showed 
disloyalty to LV. That moment's hesitation on Wormtail's part was 
enough to activate the curse. That does sound like the sort of thing 
LV would do, after all. 

Joe wrote:
> 
> Snape & Lupin - Going back to POA, I never saw Lupin being 
> particularly hostile to Snape, beyond being a Marauder. Yet Snape 
> was always unpleasant to Lupin, but he finally saved Lupin from 
> being AKed. The fact he had been awful to Lupin until recently 
> bolsters my thinking that Snape's conversion was not complete by 
> PS/SS, indeed, it wouldn't be until sometime between HBP & DH.

va32h here:

My interpretation of Snape's hostility toward Lupin is that while 
James and Sirius were really a couple of arrogant, bullying, prats, 
Lupin was fundamentally a nice person, who knows what it's like to be 
rejected and different and undesirable. This ought to make Lupin more 
sympathetic to the victims of James & Sirius' bullying, but instead 
Lupin is just so grateful to be inside the Marauder circle that he 
sits quietly by at lets James and Sirius continue on their spiteful, 
bullying way. 

I had actually not noticed that Snape saved Lupin's life (the 
memories were starting to get a little draggy for me at that point) 
but yes, I would agree, that's some growth on Snape's part. 

Joe wrote:

> Senseless Deaths - This is war, alas, and people (owls & elves 
> included) die. They die for being in the wrong place at the wrong 
> time. They die regardless of who loved them, or what they stood 
for. 
> Now, the death of the Muggle Studies teacher struck me as WILDLY 
> inelegant. It reminded me of those Star Trek episodes when a 
> character you'd never seen before schleps down to Planet Zork with 
> Kirk, Bones and Spock...you just KNOW that guy's dead before the 
> third commercial break. Hedwig's death (St. Hedwig is the patron 
> saint of orphans) underscored the fact Harry had passed to manhood. 
> Dobby's death gave Harry an opportunity to grieve *maturely.*

va32h here:
Charity "Red Shirt" Burbage, eh? Yes, I agree - to have the last book 
open with the death of a character we've never actually heard of 
before...that's pretty weak. And again - so very easily fixable, as 
Hermione took Muggle Studies and the teacher's name could have been 
inserted any time from PoA on. And if Charity's death was a new idea 
that hadn't been in the Big Outline, well then JKR should have chosen 
another teacher, whose name we did know. Professor Vector, the 
Arithmancy witch or Professor Sinestra, the Astronomy teacher. Seeing 
as Voldemort spent all of OoTP obsessing over the prophecy, I would 
think Sybill Trelawney would be the Hogwarts teacher he would most 
want to capture and interrogate. But I guess Voldy just stopped 
caring about the prophecy, like he stopped caring about blocking 
Harry from his mind. 

IN FACT - now it occurs to me that IF Voldemort had kidnapped 
Trelawney, and tortured the full prophecy out of her memory, he would 
have heard the part about "Power the Dark Lord knows not", which 
Voldemort would have naturally assumed was some sort of magical 
power, like say...the Elder Wand, and that could have sparked the 
whole Voldy-hunting-for-the-Elder-Wand plotline, much more 
efficiently. 


Joe:

> Ron - The fact that Ron wasn't sobbing hysterically at the body of 
> his slain brother and, instead, was available for conversation with 
> Harry realllllllllllllllly struck me wrong.

va32h:

When? When Fred first falls, Ron and Percy both are unwilling to 
leave the body. It isn't until they realize they must keep moving or 
be killed themselves that they move the body - and they move it to 
keep it from being defiled by DE. 

If you are referring to after the entire battle - remember several 
hours pass. Harry and Voldemort dueled as the sun rose, and after 
Voldy dies, they stay in the great hall for hours "reports came in 
all morning long" from various parts of the country, DEs running away 
or being captured, Shacklebolt being named interim Minister, and so 
on. 

Molly and Ginny were sitting side by side, they weren't wailing over 
Fred's body at that point either. 

Joe wrote:
 
> Questions which still linger...

va32h answers:

Well they will probably stay lingering. Personally, I think fandom 
read far too much into what JKR "promised" to answer in book 7. She 
always answers questions vaguely anyway, and something she planned on 
including 2 or 5 years ago may have simply been cut. 

va32h