[HPforGrownups] Unforgivables.

[Lee Kaiwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 173045

Charles Walker Jr blessed us with this gem On 26/07/2007 19:11:

> My point is that legality and morality are two different things. The
> unforgivables are called that because of legality, not morality. 

CJ:
I, for one, couldn't disagree more. We're talking about the KILLING 
CURSE here, not jaywalking, as if murder were being outlawed just for 
convenience.

> Charles Walker Jr:
>legality and morality are often at odds with each other, and that it
> is often difficult to discern which one is which.

CJ:
Don't obfuscate, please. "Often" is a long way from "always". The UCs 
are unforgivable precisely BECAUSE on these there IS absolute moral clarity.

Put another way, the absolute legal finality (the "un" in 
"unforgivable") of the UCs can only be a reflection of their absolute 
moral finality.

>Charles Walker Jr:
> By the time Harry casts the first UC in DH we know that laws 
> are pointless at this point.

CJ:
More obfuscation. "Laws are pointless" is a statement of absolute 
anarchy. What we know is, at most, that SOME laws may have become pointless.

>Charles Walker Jr:
> Harry doesn't sit and torture people with the cruciatus curse, 
> he uses it, rather effectively, to neutralize an attacker.

CJ:
An attacker!? Amycus Carrow was Crucio'd by Harry for the offense of 
spitting on McGonagall. Unless you're assuming "Amycus spun around" is 
to be interpreted as threatening (a debatable point). But even that 
hardly explains why a simple Expelliarmus wouldn't have sufficed.

And since you've referred to GoF, I think we ought to take a look at the 
passage that describes the alleged lifting of the ban on the UCs. On 
pages 526-7 of the paperback, Sirius describes the situation to Harry:

"Well, times like that bring out the best in some people and the worst 
in others. [Barty] Crouch's principles might've been good in the 
beginning --- I wouldn't know. He rose quickly through the Ministry, and 
he started ordering very harsh measures against Voldemort's supporters. 
The Aurors were given new powers - powers to kill rather than capture, 
for instance. And I wasn't the only one who was handed straight to the 
dementors without trial. Crouch fought violence with violence, and 
authorized the use of the Unforgivable Curses against suspects. I would 
say he became as ruthless and cruel as many on the Dark Side."

Not even a cursory reading of the above could fail to note two salient 
points: first, authorization to use the UCs during the first Voldemort 
war was limited to Aurors, to be used against suspects only. There was 
no blanket lifting of the ban even then.

Secondly, the authorization to use the UCs is quite clearly NOT spoken 
of approvingly. It was part and parcel with an excessive ruthlessness 
that left the "good" guys hardly distinguishable from the enemy.

CJ,
Taiwan