Victory for TEWWW EWWW

Dana ida3 at planet.nl
Fri Jul 27 13:05:39 UTC 2007


No: HPFGUIDX 173224

SSSusan:
> But.  But.  But I never said that Snape gave Harry the information 
> *hoping* he would march off to his death!  That's not what I was 
> saying at all.
<snip>

Dana:
I was not trying to contradict you. I was just wondering about his 
motivation for giving the memories in reflection of the scene we 
witnessed. 

SSSusan:
> I was saying that Snape was both following DD's instructions 
> (providing the information DD said Harry needed at the 'right 
> time') AND actually, in doing so, sort of giving Harry a gift -- 
> the gift of providing more full & complete information than DD had 
> *and* more full & complete information than he had to (all the 
> background with Lily).
<snip>

Dana:
That is what I actually was wondering about. Was Snape¡¦s intention to 
give DD¡¦s instructions to Harry or did he want to make Harry see that 
DD did nothing more then use Harry (and inevitably Snape himself)?

To some point I agree that Snape give Harry more information by 
providing him with his memories but these memories (although 
objective in themselves) were still highly selective. Snape only gave 
Harry the information to support Snape¡¦s own motivations for doing 
what he has done but the memories do not provide anything that would 
make Harry have a change of heart about who the person Snape himself 
is. So I have to wonder if Snape¡¦s attempt was actually to make Harry 
doubt DD¡¦s judgment as Snape himself clearly has done throughout the 
books and to stimulate Harry to up hold what Snape has been working 
for in all these years, to not make Lily¡¦s sacrifice to be in vain. 
Clearly Harry does the opposite of what Snape wants him to do and it 
turns out to be the correct choice. 

All memories are both projections on the character of Lily and of DD. 
Snape shows Harry that his mother is a person worth fighting for and 
at the same time shows that DD doesn¡¦t seem like the person Harry 
took him for. That DD has been running Harry¡¦s show from the 
beginning and that he hasn¡¦t done everything he possibly could to 
keep Harry, his mother (or honor her sacrifice) or his friends safe. 
So in other words Snape gave up his life in service of his mother 
while DD had been working to destroy it. That it was DD who betrayed 
Harry (or essentially Lily) and not Snape, who has been loyal to Lily 
from the moment LV threatened her life. 

That is somewhat my point that Snape actually did not give the 
memories to help Harry come to a decision to give his life for the 
greater good but that he wanted Harry to do the opposite, to live 
because his mother sacrificed herself so he could life. To no longer 
follow the directions DD has set out for him.  

SSSusan:
> I think it was a very brave thing for Snape to have done.  I didn't 
> see it as selfishly motivated as so many of the things he had done 
> were.
<snip>

Dana:
I was not implying that Snape was not brave to give these memories to 
Harry but I do think his motivations were selfish to some extent.  He 
only wanted to safe Harry so his service to Lily had not been in 
vain, while Harry not sacrificing himself meant that LV would not be 
defeated. If you look at the scene where LV tells Snape, in not so 
many words, that he is going to kill him to release the power of the 
wand then it is not hard to imagine that Snape figured Harry could 
not beat LV anyway. Snape never figured out the true essence of what 
Lily stood for as she would have sacrificed herself for the greater 
good and not just for Harry alone. The memories helped Harry see what 
Snape actually did not understand himself „³ that there are things 
worth dying for.  Snape indeed took risks but let people meet their 
fate if it meant risking his own life to safe that person. That for 
me hasn¡¦t changed I still feel that Snape felt his own life and thus 
his cover, was at all times more important if it did not involve 
Harry personally. Taking the UV after DD already asked him to kill 
him proves that to me and the Emeline Vance thing still leaves a bad 
taste in my mouth as she is indeed dead and no where in canon is 
Snape¡¦s involvement in her death contradicted as he himself claimed. 

SSSusan:
> I guess that's the only place where I quite see that you & I 
> differ.  You are saying, I think, that Snape may have done this as 
> *another* thing that was *only* out of devotion/dedication to Lily, 
> whereas I believe he did it for more than just that reason -- 
> including because DD wanted & asked him to do so.
<snip>

Dana:
Well I do not yet have a fully convicted opinion of everything given 
to me so I just go with reading people¡¦s reactions and think what 
more viewpoints and meanings the text could provide. 

When I looked at the DD aspect of Snape¡¦s memories I was truly 
appalled about DD¡¦s behavior. When Snape came to DD to ask him for 
Lily¡¦s protection DD asks Snape what he is willing to do for it in 
return, which gives the impression that without it, DD would not have 
helped Snape. Then we see DD telling Snape that he could not safe the 
Potters because they chose to put their trust in the wrong person. 
(which still disgusts me after seeing the Order and the MoM being 
able to keep LV out of the Tonks¡¦s family home and the same with the 
Weasley¡¦s and we know from PoA that DD was still worried after the 
Fidelius Charm was put in place). And then comparing their mistake 
with Snape¡¦s own mistake to believe LV would spare Lily. With other 
words if they only had trusted me none of it would have happened 
which gives of the sent of pure arrogance about his own abilities, 
while he actually did nothing major to keep the Potters safe. But if 
you look closely Snape with adding the memory of him taking the last 
part of Lily¡¦s letter to Sirius, adds why the Potters did not trust 
DD enough to make him their SK or why they did not tell him about the 
switch plan (Everyone would become SK if the SK himself dies and DD 
clearly had knowledge of the Potters whereabouts, the switch plan was 
put in place to prevent DD from becoming a SK himself if Sirius died, 
they made Sirius Harry¡¦s legal guardian to prevent DD getting his 
hands on their son. The piece of that letter shows that DD was 
friends with Grindewald and thus this was the reason for the choices 
the Potters made. 

The theory that DD asked Snape to kill him did not sit well with me 
(as I obviously expressed many times) but there it was. In the 
initial read it doesn¡¦t seem that DD is asking Snape to kill him to 
safe Draco and I think it is precisely the impression this memory was 
supposed to give. That DD only asks Snape to kill him and split his 
soul so he can die a painless death. (Of course on closer inspection 
one can see that DD expected Snape to be ordered by LV to do it 
anyway if Draco failed but Snape¡¦s objections about splitting his 
soul give just enough ambiguity to cloud DD¡¦s motives to ask this of 
Snape). 
Of course at this time JKR had already seeded doubt about DD¡¦s 
motivations and we already knew about the stone inside the ring. So 
it seemed DD died because he was too greedy and in the process forgot 
the curse LV placed on the ring and not for the greater good. 

Then we see that DD withheld information from Harry that he always 
intended Harry to die and DD¡¦s seemingly cold reaction to Snape¡¦s 
objection. We then get to see that it was DD who gave Snape the order 
to betray the Order¡¦s plan to LV.  One has to wonder if Snape attempt 
to safe Lupin is because he could not be sure if Lupin was protecting 
the real Harry or not and Harry¡¦s chances on his own would decrease 
considerably. 

What Snape is overall showing about DD is that he used Snape to 
further his plans and that DD was heartless and willing to sacrifice 
everyone. I think that the moment LV told Snape about where he got 
the wand Snape realized that DD had set him up when he asked him to 
kill him.  When LV mentions getting the wand from DD¡¦s grave Snape 
face turns so white that Harry was surprised there was still living 
someone inside it.  I think that in that moment Snape made his 
decision that he wanted to prevent Harry facing LV and why he bagged 
LV to go look for him, LV said Harry would come to him to save his 
friends from dying. So it seems that Snape had come to the conclusion 
that DD wanted Harry out of the way so LV could further his plans. 
That in fact DD had always been working to undo Lily¡¦s sacrifice, 
because it had destroyed LV in the process. 

So to me it seems that Snape was actually trying to set up Harry 
against DD and that if LV was going to live anyway that the part of 
LV¡¦s soul attached to Harry¡¦s might as well remain where it is now. 
Remember Snape did not care about Harry¡¦s wellbeing so he essentially 
did not care if the soul part was parasitic or not as long as Harry 
stayed alive so was Lily¡¦s sacrifice.  

SSSusan:
> Sorry if I've not addressed things well.  I am not sure I fully 
> understand what you were saying.  But, to clarify, I did NOT think 
> Snape gave those memories to Harry because he, out of cruelty, 
> wanted Harry to go kill himself.  I didn't think I'd implied 
> anything of the kind.
<snip>

Dana:
No, I agree with you he indeed did not give the memories to Harry so 
Harry could go kill himself. I initially did imply (I know you didn¡¦t 
and was not trying to imply you did) Snape gave the memory to send 
Harry to his death because I thought Snape would want to take his 
revenge on LV killing Lily, at all coast but I think that is not why 
he gave those memories. It seems he gave them because he stopped 
believing that he and DD were working for the same cause and that he 
chose to follow his own course of action until the very end to up 
hold Lily¡¦s sacrifice at all coast. I think he had already decided 
this partly when DD said to him that Harry needed to die and this 
explains to me why he came out when LV was alerted Harry was at 
Hogwarts and why he wanted to go and look for Harry when he was 
facing LV, even bagging for it while LV clearly indicates that there 
is no need for it because Harry will come to him. 
DD never shared the rest of the prophecy with Snape and Snape never 
believed that Harry could defeat the Dark Lord. So the only thing 
that was on Snape¡¦s mind when he shared his memories with Harry is to 
stop Harry trying to defeat LV but instead live because Lily wanted 
him to live. Or so Snape thought. 

I think it is this why JKR does not want to refer to Snape as a hero 
because she never intended Snape giving these memories to Harry to 
safe the WW or to defeat LV but only to preserve Lily¡¦s sacrifice 
even at coast of Harry¡¦s wellbeing. 
So in the strictest sense of what I¡¦m trying to imply here, is that 
Snape betrayed DD for his own piece of mind with total disregard for 
Harry¡¦s well being besides him staying alive and with disregard to 
the faith of others. 

I have to admit that I have great trouble with seeing the epitome of 
goodness in DD¡¦s character as JKR wanted to portray him. Not trusting 
that DD is always right will doom your faith and I¡¦m not sure I see 
the morality in this view or if I even want to see it.  So I¡¦m not 
sure (eventhough I am totally sure about what Snape¡¦s character was 
supposed to mean) if I can believe in a story where standing up 
against DD is the biggest evil of all. 

JMHO 

Dana 






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