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[Renee]

No: HPFGUIDX 173355

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizzyben04" <lizzyben04 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee" <rvink7@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizzyben04" <lizzyben04@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > 
> > > lizzyben:
> > > 
> > > I think JKR has a secret that she is desperately worried that
readers
> > > will figure out; so worried that she has to tear down Snape atevery
> > > possible opportunity, loudly proclaim how *horrible* he is, how his
> > > sacrifices & actions are never heroic, how he's unloveable, how he's
> > > against everything she values & believes in. The secret is, JKR is
> > > Snape. And she knows it. She's just worried we'll realize it too. 
> > 
> > Renee:
> > 
> > I'm snipping the rest of the post, because I don't think it ought to
> > be repeated on this list. But simply have to react to it.
> > 
> > Lizzyben, was it your intention of accusing JKR of being a racist and
> > a Nazi? If not I seriously advise you to rethink this post. Ad hominem
> > arguments never contribute to a healthy discussion, and you're
> > crossing the line here quite thoroughly.
> > 
> > List Elves, sorry if I seem to step into your shoes, but I couldn't
> > remain silent. 
> > 
> > Renée
> >
> 
> lizzyben:
> 
> Of course not. I'm sorry if my post wasn't clear; I was trying to get
> a handle on some concepts that I'm not really expressing very well.
> I'm saying that all authors put some of their self into their
> characters - as JKR has acknowledged about Hermione or Lupin. And I
> think Snape & the Slytherins represent a part of JKR too, a part that
> she would rather condemn & judge instead of integrating or
> understanding. I'm talking about things from a psychological
> perspective, *not* a social perspective. 

> Shadow figures are present for all of us, representing the things we
> don't like about ourselves - the key is to integrate the shadow into
> the rest of the personality; because if we do not, we'll end up
> projecting that shadow instead & trying to destroy it. (this is vague
> Jungian stuff) 

Renee:
Thanks for the explanation; I see what you mean now. But could it be
that JKR *does* want to condemn the Slytherinesque traits in herself
and others? That she thinks of them in religious terms of sinfulness
instead of Jungian terms, in terms of expiation rather than integration? 

Lizzyben:

And there's something about the total condemnation of a
> house of "emotion", combined w/Harry's statements that he likes that
> Ginny doesn't ever cry, JKR's refusal to ever allow Harry to cry -
> it's like she's saying that emotion, itself, is bad? 

Renee:
I doubt she is, because in the process of writing the series she has
frequently admitted having had bouts of crying. And several of her
non-Slytherin characters cry as well, notably Hermione. It seems a
stretch to me to suggest she is rejecting emotion as such. But its
true that she does seem to set much store by Stiff-Upperlipness in
some of her favourite characters.  

Lizzyben:

I'm just at a
> loss to understand the way JKR resolved the House system. Were fans
> really begging JKR to make Slytherin *more* evil & unredeemable? IMO,
> it seems like fans were begging for a good Slytherin, a redemption for
> the House. JKR never gave it - and her total condemnation of anything
> resembling Slytherin-ness is just, odd, to me. I don't get it. I don't
> get why she did it. It seems to be an internal need to cut off &
> destroy those qualities, instead of understanding them. So yeah, I
> think parts of Snape come from JKR, as do all of her
> characters. The problem is that JKR never managed to integrate the
> "shadow" House, the shadow figure into the overall narrative. And IMO
> the novel suffered for it. 

Renee:
I don't see this need to destroy the qualities embodied by Slytherin
House in the books. It's is an integral part of Hogwarts - and didn't
JKR say in an interview it was a necessary part? In other words, the
Shadow has been given a place, not just in her world, but also in the
narrative; JKR doesn't deny its existence at all. But because it is
the Shadow, it's influence can't be benign. 

The problem comes with the nature of the books: the story is steeped
in symbolism, but the storytelling is very realistic. The Houses are
based on the Four Elements which together constitute the world - but
each house is full of boys and girls who apart from having magical
qualities are ordinary human beings and behave as such. If there is a
problem - and to be honest, there is - it is rather a clash between
the genre of the story and the mode of its telling. I don't see it as
psychological, as a failure on JKRs part to confront her own shadow. 

Lizzyben:
 
> And the overall message of the novels *is* scary to me,
> because it seems to say that we can just instantly judge people as
> less worthy, almost less human, based on a label. While JKR condemns
> that mindset in the text for Muggles, she supports exactly that type
> of thinking when it comes to Slytherins. All of them, 25% of the
> population, are totally immoral & evil? The way JKR's world is set up
> right now, Harry & co could probably justify some Slytherin
> registration commission - you've got to make sure those evil Slyths
> don't attempt world domination again, right? And that's the paradox at
> the heart of her novel, where the subtext seems to create a message
> that runs against the surface message of the text. It preaches against
> stereotypes & dehumanization, while actually *reinforcing* exactly
> that in how Slytherins are portrayed.
 
Renee:
"Totally immoral and evil" are strong words. Draco and his parents are
weak rather than evil, and we don't see any Slytherins of Harry's
generation commit the kind of atrocities that is the trademark of
people like Bellatrix. (Well, maybe Crabbe, but I think he was being
utterly stupid rather than evil.) And don't forget that one of the
vilest characters in the book is a Gryffindor. That alone should give
Harry pause if he ever considers a Slytherin registration commission -
which I don't think he ever will, given his words about Slytherin in
the Epilogue.

I admit the message could have been clearer. Actually, this element in
the books is also the one that bugs me most. But as I said, I'm just
not inclined to ascribe it to an unwillingness on JKR's part to face
her demons. I prefer to see it as an artistic failure.

Renée