DH as Christian Allegory (was Classical & Biblical Quotations)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 173363

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > But Voldemort wasn't really the "personification of evil" was he?
> > Otherwise his destruction would have brought about bigger (or    
> > quite frankly, any) changes to the WW.  Instead, as we see in the
> > Epilogue, the WW and Hogwarts returns to business as usual.
> > <snip>

> >>Monica:
> <snip>
> As far as Voldemort as personification of evil, I would say he was 
> definitely not the only example an evil wizard, nor is he the      
> embodiment of all evil in the wizarding world such that when he was 
> destroyed, the world would be all happy and nice and good.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Hmm, but I think I have a problem in that the WW didn't even become 
that much happier or nicer.  It was the end of what I think amounted 
to an almost school-boy king-of-the-hill (heh, or keeper of the wand) 
type of squabble.  There just wasn't much *epic* to it.  

> >>Monica:
> That having been said, within the Christian religion, did Jesus    
> come and eliminate all the evil in the world? He changed the status 
> quo for sure, but evil still exists in this world (provided this is 
> your belief, if not then at least as an understanding of Christian 
> belief this would have occured).

Betsy Hp:
Well, it certainly depends on your own personal belief system, but I 
think it can safely be said that the life, death and resurrection of 
Christ made an impact.  So much so that our calender system does a 
before and after.  

> >>Monica:
> Radical change occurs primarily within people themselves, rather    
> than on an outward level. Perhaps this is what happened in the case 
> of Harry.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
If it did it all happened off-page.  Which means (since this is the 
end of the series) that it didn't happen.  Harry doesn't change after 
his fight with Voldemort.  He's pretty much the same boy as ever.  
Which, again, reflects the lack of epic, IMO.  And makes it hard to 
link with the Christ story.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > Harry's actions were a blip on the radar.  A footnote            
> > in "Hogwarts: A History".  Hardly equivalent to Christ.

> >>Monica: 
> A blip on the radar, but possibly prevented the destruction of
> all that is good in the world. A subset of the wizarding world would
> undoubtedly have continued to fight but with Voldemort at full power
> would have been crushed eventually. (Parallel to Jesus overcoming   
> the effects of original sin; at least this makes redemption possible
> whereas if he had not sacrificed himself in that way, there would   
> have been no hope for humanity).

Betsy Hp:
Except, the lack of good in the WW is exactly what gave rise to 
Voldemort.  And Harry doesn't change that.  Harry attacks the symptom 
but gives no thought to the cause.  Again, another difference between 
the Christ story where Jesus actually digs into what was wrong with 
the world and gave the world the tools to fight it, IMO.

Before Jesus there was a very small elect who had a relationship with 
God, afterwards, that relationship was open to anyone interested, 
IMO.  But with Harry, there's still just a small elect.  And there is 
still the unclean (something Jesus worked pretty strongly against, 
IMO).

> >>Monica:
> Not having the book on me at the moment, I would say what is       
> momentous about Draco's appearance at the end of the book is that   
> he is alive, has children, and has been redeemed.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
He cannot possibly be considered redeemed if he is still a member of 
the unclean class.  And since he is a Slytherin, and since the 
Slytherins are still the bad house, Draco is, as he was, a non-
redeemable lesser-than.

Which is exactly why I cannot consider these books either moral or 
Christian. 

> >>Monica - who incidentally is not a shining beacon of religiosity 
> but is nevertheless enjoying the argument. And is terribly sorry if 
> this post is lengthy and not particularly well-written but needs to 
> attend to her work instead of play all the time.

Betsy Hp:
I'm totally enjoying the ::ahem:: *discussion*, too. <bg>  And work 
is totally over-rated. <eg>

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/173317
> >>Susan McGee:
> <snip>
> I do feel terribly sorry for the children who are forbidden HP     
> because of their parents' beliefs (particularly as so many of them 
> have not read the books). I have a hard time understanding why      
> parents would not love books that teach the value of love,          
> friendship, doing the right thing, making good choices, making     
> mistakes, but trying again to make better choices, etc.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Personally, I think these are incredibly immoral books that promote 
bigotry and hatred, and possibly even suicide.  Plus, there's the 
whole might makes right and the blessed can do no wrong thing.  Oh, 
and the total lack of respect for any sort of guiding law.

> >>Susan McGee:
> Also, in answer to that commentary about how Harry doesn't struggle 
> or his character doesn't change, etc. First, I don't agree, I think 
> going to one's death willingly is an incredible struggle... <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Actually, I think if so many people close to you have died, and your 
one constant mentor has told you it's a good idea, and the dead are 
telling you to jump in the water's great, suicide is easy.  Times 
like those, living is the hard part. 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/173345
> >>Geoff Bannister:
> <snip>
> He [Harry] sees his death as the only way to get rid of Voldemort   
> once and for all. It is the altruism that leads people to risk     
> their lives to rescue others in disasters or on the battlefield;   
> the courage that led Captain Oates to walk out of Scott's tent in   
> the Antarctic.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I think the reason I have such a hard time buying this is that Harry 
left before his part was done. Nagini was still alive.  I know Harry 
told Neville to kill the snake, but it struck me as passing the 
buck.  Also, I didn't like it that it was all Dumbledore's idea, 
rather than Harry's own. Even to the extent that Dumbledore arranged 
for Harry's dead to tell him how cool death was when the time came.
 It was like Harry was just a puppet on Dumbledore's strings.  Rather 
than looking noble, Harry just looked very scarily obedient and 
malleable to me. 

Betsy Hp