The Prince interpreted

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 173447

Lisa:
> Sure it can -- there could be no other outcome other than for Snape 
> to be killed or turned into a werewolf, and no one else to actually 
> perform the killing or the bite except Lupin.  Therefore, Sirius' 
> intent was clear in the canon facts.
<snip>

Dana:
No, you can't because you can't just make assumptions about a 
person's intention by looking at the severity of the possible 
outcome. It is like saying that a kid, who accidentally shot his kid 
brother, even though he was forbidden to play with the gun that he 
had the intention of shooting his brother by playing with it anyway, 
on the basis that playing with a gun can have dangerous consequences. 

That is making assumptions about Sirius truly understanding or even 
considering that only these two options where a likely outcome and 
that is not a canon fact. The subtext actually hints at the contrary 
that Sirius did not see Lupin or his fury problem as something really 
dangerous or that he, by becoming an animagus, had not forgotten that 
not everyone was as well protected as he was. Also one has to wonder 
if Sirius understood that being a werewolf was something really 
terrible for the one affected by it.  James and his friends did not 
condemn Lupin for it. He never was anything other then their friend 
and their nightly adventures was something Sirius, just like the rest 
of them, looked forward to. I think Sirius never got what it meant 
for Lupin or that he even considered it as something negative. 

Also the many near misses that they encountered on their nightly 
excursions actually prove that Sirius had forgotten or never really 
thought about the dangers Lupin really could pose.  If they had truly 
realized what could have happened if Lupin had gotten away from them, 
I do not think that they would have continued doing it.  Many kids do 
things when they are young that are utterly stupid and they never 
think about the consequences that are so obvious to adults. Most of 
the time it never goes wrong and because of it they keep doing it 
until one day, one kid is not so lucky and the consequences of their 
dangerous behavior suddenly becomes an undeniable reality.  

Even Harry forgets the danger of Lupin being a werewolf or fails to 
even consider that werewolves can be deathly at times because of his 
association with Lupin.  To Harry Lupin is just as normal as anybody 
else. 

Was Sirius irresponsible? He absolutely was but that doesn't 
automatically mean that his ultimate goal was killing Snape or having 
Snape turn into a werewolf himself.  

Lisa:
> What Dumbledore did not know was that the Marauders 
> were sneaking out of their dorm, was that the Marauders were 
> unregistered animaguses (animagi?), was that the Marauders were 
> placing themselves in mortal peril by consorting with a werewolf 
> while he was transformed.  Snape was not going there to confront 
> the werewolf Lupin, but to expose the Marauders.  We have no hint 
> that Snape knew he'd be getting into a situation that would 
> inevitably end up with getting himself killed -- after all, if the 
> Marauders could survive hanging with a werewolf, why couldn't he?
<snip>

Dana:
Tell me why this has anything to do with Sirius intentions? I am not 
sure if you want to imply that Snape had anything noble on his mind 
when he wanted to expose them because he surely didn't. 

I'm not suggesting that Snape could really fathom the dangers of his 
actions but it is not something you can blame Sirius for. You can't 
say oh now I have done something really stupid but it is not my fault 
because he done it too. 

In my view the problem is that people still connect Sirius playing a 
trick on Snape and the possibility of Snape ending up death but as 
canon stands now these two things are no longer connected because 
Snape was not in the tunnel because he was tricked by Sirius. Snape 
went into the tunnel because he wanted to expose the marauders, 
making it an isolated event that had nothing to do with Sirius or his 
trick.

One could argue that if Sirius hadn't told Snape how to get in that 
Snape would never had been there and to some extent I agree (although 
I think Snape was sneaky enough to eventually discover how to get in 
on his own) but that doesn't make Sirius responsible for Snape 
choosing to go and now that we actually see that Snape had 
motivations of his own to go, I think it is only fair to say that he 
himself was responsible for the choices he made, regardless if Snape 
understood what type of consequences his action could have had or 
not. 

Snape was not in the tunnel as a direct result of a trick played on 
him by Sirius. Snape was in the tunnel because he used the 
information that Sirius gave him in the hope he could expose the 
marauders and make Lily see that James was not something to be 
admired. 

Sirius's intentions no longer had anything to do with why Snape was 
in the tunnel. It was Snape's own intention that could have resulted 
in his death or him turning into a werewolf. You can't blame Sirius 
for Snape's own stupidity even if Sirius acted irresponsible by given 
Snape information that he shouldn't have. It is not an automatic 
declaration that Sirius without a shadow of a doubt had murder on his 
mind when he told Snape how to get to Lupin. 

Lisa:
> And Sirius was going to ... what?  Save Snape before Lupin bit or 
> killed him?  James didn't think so.
<snip>

 Dana:
This doesn't seem really logical to me to assume that Sirius actual 
envisioned Snape needed saving because James thought otherwise. Snape 
himself did not envision he needed saving even while he knew what he 
was going to find. 

Lisa:
> And lets the Marauders get away with breaking school rules by 
> sneaking out of their dorm; breaking Ministry Rules by being 
> unregistered animaguses (animagi?); and allowing themselves to 
> continue placing themselves in mortal peril every month?  Gee, 
> their parents must be comforted.
<snip>

Dana:
I think you are applying a slight shortsightedness here for the 
simple fact that Snape was breaking school rules too. He would not 
have been able to know the marauders sneaked out of their dorms at 
night if he himself had followed the rules strictly and neither would 
he have gone to the willow if he was such an innocent rule obliging 
student as the willow was forbidden to go near. 

The marauders breaking the Ministry Rules had nothing to do with 
Snape nor was it up to him to reveal any wrong doing on their part. 

And in retrospect Snape thought it funny that is own friends applied 
dark magic on innocent school girls. Saw nothing wrong with it and 
was not shy to use it himself on other people. 

The marauders were arrogant ignorant school boys but I think it goes 
too far to say that they did what they did because they wanted to put 
people in danger. 


Lisa: 
> We really don't know why James did it, actually.

Dana:
Does that really change anything about why Snape thought he did it? 

Lisa:
> I don't think it was ever meant to be a joke on either behalf.  I 
> think Snape was completely serious about getting the Marauders 
> expelled, and I think Sirius was dead-set on harming Snape, 
> to "teach him a lesson."
<snip>

Dana:
Well trying to proof to Lily that Sirius and James were not as 
wonderful as everyone thought they were does seem to me that Snape 
was the one wanting to inflict the most damage. If Sirius had been 
dead-set on harming Snape then I think he would have made sure that 
Snape indeed went to the tunnel and not leave it to chance that Snape 
might be to cowardly to go. He surely would not have told anyone that 
could possibly interfere with his plan. 

Again canon does not give any type of factual information about why 
Sirius told Snape how to get passed the willow or how it transpired. 
Teaching someone not to sneak around after them by scaring the living 
daylight out of him seems to me an equally valid assumption. 
On the other hand we do have valid information to conclude that Snape 
did not go to the tunnel because he was played a trick on. So Snape's 
reasons for being in the tunnel had nothing to do with anything 
Sirius did or said to him but Snape did use, him being played a trick 
on, to clarify his presence in the tunnel and tried to use this to 
get the marauders expelled. So Sirius so-called trick was used 
against him. 

It is like someone wanting to play a practical joke on you and you 
finding out before hand and turning it around so that the one playing 
the joke is now actually the one who is played.  That is what 
happened. Snape wasn't tricked in going to the willow because he 
already found out what Sirius was playing at. Snape wanted to turn 
the trick around by exposing the marauders instead. 

Lisa:
> Precisely - that IS your opinion.  And I have mine.

Dana:
Sure and I respect your opinion I just disagree with the assessment 
about something being canon fact while it actually isn't factual at 
all. Just because Sirius wasn't sorry after nothing actually happened 
doesn't mean that he meant for Snape to be killed. It could be but it 
isn't an actual fact. So filling in the blanks is indeed just opinion 
but until it is proven without a shadow of a doubt that Sirius wanted 
Snape to be killed I'm very happy to assume it wasn't so. 

Lisa:
> LOL -- you're the one who doesn't want to be convinced.  I have 
> held theories on several things and kept my mind open enough to 
> have it changed -- most notably, after reading HBP, I thought Harry 
> was a horcrux.  However, there were too many good solid arguments 
> to the contrary, and I was convinced to change my positions.  I've 
> learned from that mistake to trust my instincts!
<snip>

Dana
That might be so but the moment a theory becomes validated or 
disproven by canon then why should one still need to look at it from 
a different perspective? 
I could not for the live of me believe DD ordered Snape to kill him 
so I theorized about other reasons Snape could have had to kill DD 
but I was proven wrong and it is no longer open for debate. Only the 
unproven parts of the theory remain open for debate. 

Interpretation is not the same has having a theory and always remains 
open for debate because different people see different things. 
Interpretation can lead to theories and theories can lead to 
interpretation by trying to fit canon to the theory instead of 
letting the text speak for itself. Interpretation will never be fully 
validated by canon unless the text actually leaves no room for it to 
be interpreted in any other way and therefore it is actually a moot 
point to try to convince someone to see it differently if they do not 
want to. And you already made up your mind that Sirius is guilty of 
trying to kill Snape and me jumping to hoops will not convince you to 
change your mind. 

To me Sirius intentions are not validated in canon and are therefore 
open for debate. Snape's reason for going to the tunnel and him 
having enough information to know it could be potentially dangerous 
is validated in canon. This means Snape did not go to the tunnel 
because he was tricked regardless of what Sirius wanted to happen to 
him if he did. 

These two points become separate issues of debate. 1) Snape put 
himself in a situation that could have gotten him killed 2) Sirius's 
reasons for telling Snape how to get passed the willow. These two 
issues are no longer part of the same event. If Snape had gotten 
killed then it was not because Sirius tricked him but because Snape 
wanted to go there to find out what the marauders were up to. 

It is like saying Snape wanted to kill Harry when he revealed Harry's 
ability to speak parseltongue and thus giving Harry the tool to enter 
the Chamber of Secrets. Harry knew what he could face in the chamber 
but he went anyway. Snape had nothing to do with it. Harry to some 
level could have find out by other means that he could speak 
parceltongue but it was Snape who tricked him into revealing it. 

JHMO

Dana