12GP & Secret-Keeper Snape (was Questions for JKR)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 173500

Lyn wrote:
<snip>
> It seems clear that the entire Order believes Snape is now ESE. It
also seems clear that, based on their understanding of the Fidelius 
Charm placed on the house, once DD died, everyone he'd let in on that
particular secret also became a Secret Keeper. That meant Snape could
(if he'd actually been ESE) revealed its location to LV and the DEs.
> 
> What strikes me is odd is that the protections put in place to 
protect Snape from doing so, only seem designed to work if and when 
Snape actually enters the house. IIRC, the tongue-tying curse only 
takes effect when someone enters the front hall, then the image of 
Dead!Dumbledore appears and some code phrase along the lines of "I did
not kill you" deactivates all of that.
> 
><snip>
> 
> So I don't see how a tongue-tying curse could have kept Snape from 
writing down the same thing Dumbledore did on a piece of paper and
handing it around to anybody he pleased, even if it somehow worked on
him no matter where he was and not just if he walked in the front door
again. And some of the Order had to know this, because they were 
*there* when the same thing via DD worked to reveal the place to Harry
when they first took him there.
> 
<snip> I don't see how the Order could've believed that the 
protections we see working in DH could've prevented Snape from 
communicating the location and therefore revealing the house to LV 
and the DEs. I guess they have to assume he didn't/couldn't do this,
because it seems like even though the DEs know where it should be,
because they're staking it out while HRH are there, they still can't
see it or gain access to it until one of them is accidently Apparated
with the trio right onto the doorstep. So were there other 
protections in place, that would keep Snape from revealing the place
even by writing it down like DD did? It seems like the Order must 
have thought so, and assumed those protections were working.

Carol responds:
I've probably undersnipped, sorry. I agree that the protections seem
inadequate (obviously Snape got through them) and they're lucky he was
DDM. Maybe the protections didn't work against him because he didn't
really murder Dumbledore. Either that, or being intelligent, he easily
figured out what to say. Certainly, he wouldn't have been afraid of a
seeming Inferius or avenging ghost of DD even if it were real (and
it's unlikely that Mad-Eye would place an Inferius in the house to
protect it). But the tongue-tying curse might have also made it
impossible to write out the name; certainly, it gave him an excuse for
telling the DEs and LV that he still couldn't reveal the secret. But
the Order had also vacated 12 GP; it was no longer their headquarters.
And they didn't expect HRH to go there; they were supposed to be at
the Weasleys.

As for Yaxley, Hermione didn't speak the name of the place or the
secret formula, "The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be
found at 12 Grimmauld Place," so Yaxley could not have seen the HQ,
only it's surroundings. Bellatrix could have told him that her cousin
Sirius had once lived in 12 GP and they could go there and watch the
neighborhood, but they still wouldn't be able to see the house unless
Snape told them, which he supposedly "can't" do because of the
(unneeded) tongue-tying curse. At any rate, the fact that the DEs are
there but can't see the house and the hint that Snape got in and
ransacked the house are perhaps intended as clues that he's DDM.
Obviosly, HRH can't see that, any more than Harry and Hermione picke
up on the "terrible" detention with Hagrid in the hidden forest. Even
McGonagall doesn't see that Snape, unlike Umbridge, is not locked out
of the headmaster's office. (Does she know that the password is
"Dumbledore"? Ginny must have said his name to get in and steal the
fake sword of Gryffindor. The characters, however, are conveniently
oblivious.)
> 
Lyn:
> Another thing - if Yaxley's Apparating onto the doorstep with the 
trio counts as revealing the secret, this means that just accidently 
being taken to a place reveals it, even if the the Secret Keeper who 
takes someone there doesn't actively communicate that information, 
which seems to be how such secrets had to be revealed before this 
point. Which seems to indicate that, say, if Peter Pettigrew 
(supposing he'd not been a, well, rat) had just paid a visit to the
Potters in Godric Hollow, and they'd opened the door and he'd said,
"Why, hello there, James and Lily Potter," upon seeing them, anyone
who'd followed him there without his knowledge and saw and overheard
this would now know exactly where the Potters were. Which raises some
doubt in my mind as to the effectiveness of the Fidelius Charm, if a
Secret Keeper can reveal the secret involved without intending to or
even knowing he's done it.  <snip>

Carol:
I don't think so. It's a Fidelius Charm and can only be broken by a
breach of faith, and the Secret can only be revealed by being
deliberately revealed by the Secret Keeper. It can't be revealed
through Veritaserum or Legilimency (I'm not sure about torture), so
how could it accidentally be revealed? PP had to deliberately betray
the Potters for LV to know their location, and Snape (or Hermione)
would have to deliberately betray the Order for the HQ location to be
revealed. The tongue-tying curse was intended to prevent snape from
revealing the Secret by whatever means (no doubt including a note,
though he wasn't present when Mad-Eye handed the note to Moody), but
as I said, I don't think they were counting on those protections. They
removed anything of importance and vacated in case Snape got past the
protections. (As for Snape himself, all he had to do is to say, "My
lord, I have ransacked the place and found nothing of value. The Order
have taken all their documents and fled," using Occlumency to hide the
bit about the tear and the photograph/letter, which somehow didn't
quite fit the image of Voldemort's ruthless right-hand man.) 

Lyn:
> The other thing all this makes me wonder about, is whether or not
Mad-Eye - who supposedly put all the protections on 12GP once DD was
dead and Snape was presumed ESE - actually knew better, if DD had told
him more about the overall plan and Snape's part in it than he told 
anyone else. We don't see his reaction to Snape's apparent murder of 
Dumbledore and flight from Hogwarts afterward, because he's not 
there. <snip>

Carol:
Interesting idea, but I don't think so. DD doesn't share information
except when he has to, and only with the person most closely involved.
Also, we saw Moody's attitude toward Snape in the Pensieve scene in
GoF. I think he underestimate Snape's skill as a wizard just as he
misjudged his loyalties. In the end, the main purpose the protections
served (IMO) was to give Snape a cover story as to why he still
couldn't reveal the secret and make the HQ visible even after the DEs
knew where it was.

Carol, who doubts that even much more sophisticated protections could
have foiled ESE!Snape if he existed