Snape's turn to DEs (Re: The Prince interpreted)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 173542

> Carol responds:
> Of course Lily isn't responsible for his choices or his mistakes.
> But IMO he hadn't made his choice until that point. As you say, she
> was the only thing keeping him from joining his fellow Slytherins,
> the people he thought were his friends whose evil deeds he has been
> excusing because he doesn't want to see them as evil. He's in
> denial, as far as I can see, and certainly, if it hadn't been for
> Lily, he would have joined them earlier. they are his house, and he
> never loses his affection for Slytherin and Lucius Malfoy and the 
> people who made him feel that Hogwarts was his home, at the same 
> time indoctrinating him with their pure-blood prejudices (which he
> clearly did not yet have on the Hogwarts Express or he would not
> have been friends with Lily and wanted her to join him in 
> Slytherin: Slytherin = brains; Gryffindor = brawn in his early
> view). He's clearly torn. He has to choose between Slytherin and 
> Lily and he can't do it until her rejection leaves him, in his 
> mind, nowhere to go but to his friends.  He has not yet acquired 
> the courage to do the right thing regardless of consequences.
> Without Lily's friendship and support, there's nothing to hold him 
> back from his ambition to become a DE. 

Jen: Wow Carol, after all our debates about Snape since HBP, I was 
shocked to read this passage and find myself agreeing with most 
everything in your analysis.  What a surprise, eh?!  I also 
understand that you're analyzing the reason why Snape became a DE 
rather than blaming Lily for that choice, which was how I first 
interpreted your post.  That's a very important question since we 
know the timing of the Prank now (as you mentioned).  Like you, I 
expected the Prank would turn out to be the root of Snape's 
motivation for siding with Voldemort or the final straw at least.

The only thing I'm not certain about is if Snape had no 
indoctrination prior to being sorted into Slytherin.  You've 
mentioned the Muggle prejudice he exhibited toward Petunia, which is 
something many magical people seem to be raised with or at least 
exposed to; I find it more relevant for Snape's story as opposed to 
another magical person only because he joined the DEs.  It's possible 
he was influenced to look down on Muggles because of his father's 
behavior or things he heard from the Prince family about Tobias.  

Re: Muggleborn witches and wizards, I do believe his hesitation when 
Lily asked, "Does it make a difference, being Muggleborn?" indicated 
Snape was well aware before arriving at Hogwarts that there was a 
division in the WW, that Muggleborns were looked down on by pureblood 
families.  Again perhaps this knowledge came from the Princes.  After 
his eyes roved over Lily's face he decided...what?  To tell her a 
little white lie because he thinks she's so wonderful that everyone 
else will?  Or to spare her the anxiety of knowing?  I don't know, 
but something happened during that hesitation and his answer wasn't
truthful, I don't think.

Whatever indoctrination Snape may have had, someone, most likely 
Eileen, *was* telling him other types of information, such as 
Slytherin being associated with brains (and Gryffindor with brawn, 
lol - must be before Harry arrived <g>).

Carol:
> But it seems to me that Severus, unlike his "little Death Eater 
> friends" who openly express their ambition to become DEs, is torn 
> between Lily and the DEs. IMO, He's teetering on the edge like 
> Draco in HBP trying to choose between killing and not killing DD 
> and. like Draco, is unable to choose. Yes, *she* says that he has
>  made his choice, but that's her interpretation based on his
> friends and his use of the word "Mudblood." 

Jen:  I'm not sure about this point.  On one hand, Snape doesn't 
object or defend himself when Lily says he can't wait to join You 
Know-Who, even though it's clear he will help his case with Lily if 
he does so.  Maybe he hasn't made a final, irreversible decision, but 
I sensed he's very much torn between Lily and *something* that 
attracts him to his friends and You-Know-Who.  Perhaps it's 
intellectual, hoping to learn from LV; intellectual pursuits appear 
to be a passion for him,  almost as strong a pull as his feelings for 
Lily.  I picture him teetering between his two interests at this 
point, Lily or his friends/Voldemort?  

Carol:
> But surely, this is the defining moment. If she'd forgiven him,
> given him the second chance that DD later gives him, perhaps he'd 
> have found the courage not to join the DEs. 

Jen:  I got the sense Lily had already given him a second chance when 
she continued their friendship despite her friend's objections, 
despite what Snape's friends had done to Mary, a fellow Gryffindor 
(whatever it was).  I would imagine Lily heard very strong opposition 
to her friendship with 'Sev' after that incident and she still made a 
choice to stick with him.

Anyway, I agree that the Worst Memory was the definining moment for 
both of them in their mutual friendship: Snape because he couldn't 
change Lily's mind and Lily because she believed his act was 
significant enough to show the path he'd chosen.  

Carol:
> A word of explanation. I had always thought that the life debt to
> James was the reason he went to Dumbledore, and I believed that he
> also regretted that Voldemort had targeted Potter's innocent wife
> and child. It turns out to be only Lily (but his loyalty to
> Dumbledore and his determination to protect Lily's son for her sake 
> grows into something more, a desire to bring down Voldemort and to 
> do "anything"--to spy, to lie, to risk his life--to serve
> Dumbledore's cause. yes, it's because of Lily, but Lily helps him 
> to do what's right rather than what's easy. 

Jen:  I also thought the life-debt brought Snape to Dumbledore 
initially, although harbored an icky feeling it might have to do with 
Lily, not wanting her to be his motivation.  But you know what?  Very 
surprisingly, I found the fact that the two had known each other 
since childhood and had a relationship over several years at Hogwarts 
to be very believable after I read the Prince's Tale several times.

I also wondered if the Houses mingled more when Severus and Lily 
first arrived at Hogwarts?  Obviously the house prejudice was already 
in place given the talk in the train compartment, but I noticed Lily 
didn't say her friends objected because Snape was a Slytherin but 
because of the actions of his friends and their use of Dark Magic.  
Maybe I'm making fine distinctions that didn't exist though, and 
being a Slytherin was already considered practically synonymous with 
being a DE.  

Carol:
> And James? We still don't know what turned him around. It must have
> been Lily (who still, apparently, didn't want him to hex Severus, 
> who had once been her friend). And James, of course, would have had 
> to stop running with a werewolf and get serious about his 
> responsibilities once he married and fathered a child. 

Jen:  Love of Lily no doubt.  She couldn't change Snape so turned her 
sights on James. <g>  I'm kidding although without any information to 
go on it read that way.  Likely James had to clean up his act 
*before* Lily became interested in him, if her characterization is 
consistent.  

Carol:
> His friends in Slytherin seem to have recognized those talents and 
> admitted him into their gang despite his being a Half-Blood. The
> choice between them and Lily must have been painful, and it's easy 
> to see why he turned a blind eye to what they really were, just as
> Remus Lupin ignored his friends' bullying despite his qualms of
> conscience.

Jen:  Interesting thought there, comparing Lupin and Snape in regard 
to their friends.  This strikes me as very true, especially since we 
learn Snape's courage comes to him later in life.  I'd say Lupin's 
does as well, when he returns to his responsibilities as a married 
man and father instead of running away as he wants to do initially.  
Too bad Snape's memories didn't include a snippet of him interacting 
with his Slytherin friends to see exactly what his experience was as 
a half-blood in that house.  

Carol:
> "Lately, only those that I could not save" says it all.
> And by DH, Hermione, that insufferable know-it-all, is to be called
> Miss Granger.

Jen: Nice writing by JKR in both these instances.  I have to say, 
Dumbledore and Snape were like two sides of a balance for me while 
reading The Prince's Tale:  While my estimation of Dumbledore went 
down, my impression of Snape went up.  I'm still sorting out 
Dumbledore; King's Cross helped with my understanding.  

Jen