Slytherins as jews WAS: Re: DH as Christian Allegory/I am...

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 173647

> > Alla:
> <snip>
> > The funniest argument fot Slytherin as persecuted jews symbolism
> > to me is of course Snape's hooked nose. Um, why?
> >
> > I have blue eyes,  blond hair and all my family does and we are 
all
> > very very jewish. On the other hand, there are people with hooked
> > noses, who are jews and NOT jews,  had never been jews, you know?
> >
> > Am I suppose to think of Jew the moment  I read about Snape's
> hooked nose? Well, I really do not.
> > <SNIP>

Paula
> I'm Jewish with all of my grandparents/relatives and those before
> them from Eastern Europe - I never thought of Snape of Jewish as I 
do
> not think of "hook noses" of being exclusively Jewish.  We are also
> not dark...I'm very fair with red hair as is my mother, daughter and
> her son - certain mannerisms and names are clues for those of us 
that
> are Jewish because, perhaps this is something we have grown up 
with  in our families as well as those of us who have relatives from 
the "old country".  This is what is true for me.  That being said, I
> cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could ever see the
> Slytherins are being Jewish!  They were the Pure Bloods trying to 
wipe out those that were night.  Clearly it was those that were 
considered impure that were not acceptable.  Hitler = Voldemort.

Magpie:
When Sydney brought up what she did, she stated that she was worried 
people would think she was actually calling Rowling anti-Semitic.  It 
turns out there's a far worse misunderstanding, one that suggests 
that people are actually supporting anti-Semitic claims. I would hate 
to think that any person on this list feels that, and I think that's 
why the subject was brought up only with wariness. I would hope we 
could discuss the issue *because* we're all starting from the 
understanding that we were talking about stereotypes and how they 
work and not any actual people at all.

Nobody (that I have read) thinks that Slytherins are supposed to be 
Jews or say anything about Jews. Even more important, no one has 
expressed any views that actual Jewish people all have hooked noses 
or are dark. Sydney was describing a *stereotype* that has been used 
historically, not actual Jewish people. Perhaps the stereotype is no 
longer known as much as it was, and that's great--but it's been a 
familiar part of Western literature. Rowling draws on a lot of things 
like that that might not be recognizable by all readers today, but do 
exist and still "work" on some level. I don't want anybody on the 
list to think that anyone here *believes* this stereotype to the 
point where you have to defend yourself against it. Hooked nose does 
not to me, equal being Jewish any more than it does you. Stereotypes 
are an ugly subject, but that's why we're bringing them up to talk 
about something that to some of us wasn't that pretty in the story. I 
didn't want to offend anybody in talking about it, but it honestly 
seemed like something we should be able to talk about without 
offending anyone.

In fact, I think that any real analysis of the books *can't* avoid 
discussions like this, because Rowling draws so blatantly from all 
sorts of traditions. The Slytherins aren't at all unique in this.

In talking to Alla, I agreed with her that the Slytherins (unlike 
Jews) actually *were* this collection of traits. It seemed like where 
we disagreed was that for her, since there were no real life 
Slytherins who were really not like this and so were being libeled by 
the depiction of Slytherins, it was okay. I think it sends a similar 
bad message regardless. 

Also, seeing those parallels to stereotypes does not in any way mean 
one also missed the the many dropped anvils that Voldemort's views 
about blood impurity are supposed to be like Hitler, with 
the "Mudbloods" being like the people he considered impure. 

So to reiterate as many times as it needs to be said:

Jews do not all have hooked noses, nor are they all dark. They 
actually don't look (or act) any one way at all.

When Rowling has Muggle-borns being forced to prove their bloodline, 
that's like Hitler going after Jewish people.

In fact, the Slytherin belief system of blood purity is in itself 
racist in the same way Hitler was. 

Slytherins are not being persecuted in canon the way Jews were 
persecuted by Hitler. Nor are they in any way victims in canon the 
way Hitler's victims were.

Eric:
I've noticed that some of my Learned Friends (apologies; I get the 
list in digest form and don't always note who says what) feel that 
equating the DE-dominated MoM after the coup with Slytherins, and 
refer to the ones who persecuted Muggleborns as "Slytherins."

Er---how do we KNOW? AFAICR, nobody has ever seen a single line of 
canon saying that Darling Dolores Umbridge was a Slytherin. 

Magpie:
No, but we have Slytherin as the house that Sorts people due to blood 
purity, Voldemort wanting to Sort everyone under Slytherin's values 
and people knowing to claim to be Slytherin to get away from the 
snatchers--and the Slytherin banner naturally being missing from the 
RoR. The only DE we actually know who was in another house was Peter 
(who btw, is one DE not associated with the Pureblood agenda).

Do you have to be Slytherin to support the Pureblood agenda that the 
Ministry is pushing in DH? Not at all. Is Slytherin explicitly 
associated with the Pureblood agenda? Yes. Rowling didn't happen to 
do a Nazi parallel where the whole country and all four houses 
because caught up in fascism, for instance. Not that she had to--she 
just wasn't writing about racism that way. There is no "what have we 
done/become?" element to the story. It's the other who has/is the 
problem.

-m