Sorting and House System

[sneeboy2]

No: HPFGUIDX 173791


> 
> Kit jumps in:
Everyone views / perceives things
> differently yes, but there is aculturation that gives us a bias or
> filter - and that filter or stereotype hat grew from the sorting led
> to many of the problems that created the possibility of a Voldy. But
> is it the hat that is flawed, and the sorting that occurs, or is the
> stereotypes that humans ascribe to as part of culture the real root
> of the problem?

Sneeboy2 replies: 
The magic hat is parallel to a scientific "sorting" -- say, a
personality test, or a genetic one. It offers support for stereotypes
that may have their origin in other things. Yes, we're offered a
couple of exceptions to the stereotypes, but all but the most hardcore
prejudices will allow for exceptions while still clinging to the
stereotype. I was dismayed, too, that the only character who suggested
getting rid of the hat was the incarnation of evil. It's the old
fallacy that the 
only alternative to limited choice is no choice at all. 


> Kit here:
I think we have grown to
> believe what we've heard and learned through Harry's perception of
> things - that Gryffindor is obviously the end all be of the houses,
> which simply isn't true. Starting with GOF we begin to learn more of
> the differences between the houses. Hufflepuff produced the house
> champion for Hogwarts, not Gryffindor. The songs the hat sings
> proclaim both unity AND the attributes of each of the houses, AND the
> need to recognize those in one another. I loved the riddle answer
> method of entry into Ravenclaw, but even more, I loved Harry's
> astonished response to it - something along the lines of Isn't there
> just a password?
> 
> My biggest complaint about DH is that everything felt so rushed and
> wasn't fleshed out as much as I've grown to expect from JKR - she
> just had so many story lines to tie up, and not enough time I think.
> Still, it's there although subtly. The sorting may be too early, but
> the stereotypes attributed are not a product of the sorting but the
> student's and family's perceptions of what the houses stand for.

Sneeboy2:
The issue isn't really about Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw; it's about
Slytherin, the bad house, the one it's OK to hate. The Slytherins are
presented in a uniformly unfavorable light; different degrees of
"badness" exist among them, but they are all bad on some level. I had
hoped the hat would be destroyed in the battle somehow, so that the
school would be faced with the question of how to sort, now that the
easy, reliable method is gone. My complaint is not so much that
stereotypes and predjudices exist in the books, but that the author
makes us feel confident in believing them. It's a great comfort to
think that 99 percent of the selfish bastards in the world all walk
around clearly identified as such. That aspect of the fantasy world
has a much greater impact on the imagination of young readers than a
few conciliatory words in the epilogue. Perhaps if you're not inclined
to believe in stereotypes, you can search out support for your
feelings here and there in the books. But if you are prone to trust
stereotypes, the support for your feelings are writ large in every
volume. 

 Kit:

It's
> hard to catch in the pell mell madness of the battle, but some
> Slytherins do return with reinforcements, Narcissa does spare HP and
> gives up on LV in order to rescue her son. At battles end, the
> Malfoys are sitting with everyone in the Great Hall, not sure if it's
> okay to stay, yet no one tells them to leave. Malfoy and Harry don't
> become good buds and chat it up at the train station (that would be
> too trite), but they acknowledge each other - politely...

Sneeboy2:
I missed the arrival of the Syltherin cavalry myself. The
possibilities for Harry and Malfoy nineteen years later are not
limited to either good buds or respectful nods. The former is trite,
but the latter is predictable and not evidence that anything much has
changed since the final scene where the Malfoys are allowed to stay
but not embraced. 


> 
> Carol responds:
> >I think the epilogue shows a gradual eradication of prejudice in the
> >making. Draco and Harry are not at each other's throats like Lucius
> >Malfoy and Mr. Weasley. Draco has probably not indoctrinated his son
> >with the pure-blood superiority ethic that caused so much grief in DH
> >and it's unlikely that the Sorting Hat, which has always advocated
> >unity and its own abolition, will sort by that criterion.

Sneeboy2: 
I wish she had shown us some of this. IIf Harry can offer only one
exception to the rule about evil Slytherins, I kind of doubt that
Draco is preaching to his kids that muggle-borns are all OK. I don't
see any reason to assume that the sorting process has changed. 

Kit:
I am surprised at the resentment and feelings towards the
> sorting system. No, it isn't perfect, but it's real - there is so
> much in life that this serves as an analogy for. Our to true measure
> of maturation is realizing how we define and manipulate the divisions
> we experience in life to either serve our better good or harm us,
> color our views of others, etc.

Sneeboy2:
I agree it's an allegory for the real world, but the whole point of
fictional allegory is to cause us to go back and look at the real
world a little differently. I could see a young reader, at book's end,
questioning whether a bully or mean teacher at school is really all
bad. But I don't see much -- certainly not enough for my taste -- in
the books that encourages us to look again at the group identities we
use to define ourselves and ask whether there is a real basis for
them, or whether they are mere cultural habit. Part of me suspects
that in Britain the division into groups is more deeply ingrained, and
that mounting a serious challenge to it would be considered foolhardy.
Judging by JKR's statements in interviews about the characters' adult
careers, she believes in political reform, but perhaps cultural reform
 seems like too much to hope for.