Victory for TEWWW EWWW?? Snape the hero

[leslie41]

No: HPFGUIDX 173880

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" <rdoliver30 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> > Leslie41:
> > Well, there I would have to disagree.  Names are incredibly
> > important, most especially the names we give ourselves.  They are
> > often a profound statement of not only our interests, but what we
> > admire, and with whom we identify. Lupinlore has and continues to
> > make a statement with his name, and any perusal of his posts will
> > show that his choice is apt in terms of what he admires.
> 
> LL:
> My goodness, how terribly, terribly, completely,
> utterly, fantastically out of order!  And, as with most
> psychologizing, whether in English or History (which is where my
> Ph.D. and 14 years of experience is, as well as my publications), 
> how completely and utterly manufactured of garbage.  The
> name Lupinlore was actually picked because I had about two minutes
> before my ride left and I was reading a fanfic about Lupin at the
> time that had to do with werewolf lore.
> 
> Which is, in any case, totally irrelevant.  As both Nora and Alla
> have pointed out, what on Earth does Lupin's character have to do
> with Snape's?  The failings or perception of them in one man have
> nothing whatsoever to do with the failings or perception of them in
> another.

No, but IMHO they have everything to do with how seriously we are 
supposed to take your opinion on Snape (it seems you have decided to 
stop calling him Snapey-poo, thankfully).  In other words, it has to 
do with how good you are as a judge of character.  

Hey, I could be wrong about you. It's not like I've read every single 
post you've ever made.  Do you think Lupin is a stronger, better, 
more responsible and braver person than Snape, even now?  

If you do, I've been wrong about you, and your name, and bending low, 
I apologize.  

 
> > Leslie41:
> > To admire Remus Lupin and excoriate and loathe Severus Snape seems
> > to me to reveal a basic refusal to come to terms with the 
> > characters of both men, and anyone guilty of that to me 
> > demonstrates that their opinions on Severus Snape are suspect.
 
> LL:
> Why?  Because you admire Severus Snape and excoriate Remus Lupin?

It's not either or.  Not by a longshot.  I admire Severus Snape, but 
I am not some happy-crappy "How could Lily desert him? Oh, he's just 
so lovable and wonderful" sort of Snaper.  As I have said before, 
he's hardly likeable.  And with regard to Lily he gets exactly what 
he deserves.

As for Remus, I like him an awful lot.  And I understand exactly 
where he's coming from.  

> Because somehow a Ph. D. conveys great insight?  

Actually, I am trained to read literary texts and interpret them.  
Insight?  Perhaps not. Your mileage may vary. But experience and 
training, yes.  

> It doesn't, in either my case or yours or anyone else's.  The 
> doctorate line at any graduate school commencement contains as 
> large a percentage of dolts, dimwits, and fools as you'll find in 
> any random sample.  The same goes for any assemblage of senior 
> faculty.

There, we certainly agree!   

> It would seem that anyone who admires Sirius Black and dislikes 
> Snape is in the same boat, as is anyone who admires James Potter and
> dislikes Snape, as is anyone who admires Dumbledore and dislikes
> Snape, as is anyone who ... well, anyone who dislikes Snape, period.

Again, we are not talking about "like".  I do not "like" him, mostly 
because (in accordance with the way JRK has constructed his 
character) he is manifestly not "likeable."

Must one "like" to admire?  Snape is an unpleasant man, but he 
possesses great wit and intelligence, and unfathomable loyalty and 
bravery.  He is mean-spirited on the small scale.  On the large scale 
he always does the right thing.  

Lupin is very likeable on the small scale.  He's affable, friendly, 
and very kind to his students.  But on the large scale, he fails to 
protect them.  As a student, he failed to protect his peers.  As a 
man, he marries and knocks up Tonks and them complains about it.

He changes, but it takes him until the middle of the DH to do so.  
Snape made a terrible mistake as a very young man, and then 
negotiated the rest of his life to atone for it.  

> Including the person who invented him -- who, by the way, has
> expressed great liking and admiration for Remus Lupin ...

I like and admire him as well.  It is liking and admiring him *to the 
exclusion* of Severus Snape that seems problematic to me.

> I dislike Snape because he is petty, cruel, abusive, idiotically
> blind to the truth, and contemptible.  The fact of what he did to
> help Harry (which he did not do for noble reasons, but because of 
> his own intense emotional burden) in no way excuses his sins.  
> True, Harry forgives him, even sees the good in him, but that's 
> what Resurrected Saviors do.  Not being a Resurrected Savior, I 
> don't have to worry about being so divinely forgiving -- I leave 
> that to my priest in the confessional.

I agree with you that Harry's journey, in the end, has very Christian 
overtones. But Harry is never ever presented as being like Christ in 
behavior or attitudes. JRK herself, in her most recent interview 
said "Like Snape, he is flawed and mortal." I would leave aside the 
matter of authorial intent but it seems important to you.   

> Lupinlore, who really IS getting to like JKR more with each passing
> revelation

And what do you think of her "revelation" that though deeply flawed, 
she believes Snape is a hero?  That Lily might have loved him?