On Jurisprudence (was:Re: On the perfection of moral virtues)

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 169596

> Goddlefrood:
> <snip>
>
> The UK as a whole has no Constitution, JKR is from there, she
> has little regard of how legal systems outside the UK might
> work. The US justice system has no relevance at all to the WW.
> This has been stated ad infinitum (mostly by me, I'll grant
> you ;)).  <snip>

lizzyben04:
Well, Britain is a democracy, with a Constitution that formed the
basis of our own. They came up with the first principles of a
democratic society a thousand years ago w/the Magna Carta (that states
that the king is not above the law), & habeas corpus (you can't be
thrown into a dungeon w/o a hearing). The Magna Carta created a
society of "laws, not men." However, in the WW, there is a system of
"men, not laws." The MOM & Dumbledore *are* above the law, and the
rules seem to depend mostly on who happens to be in power at the time.
You can be thrown into a dungeon (Azkaban) without a hearing or a fair
trial. The WW is basically an autocratic society.

We don't actually meet the precepts of the Constitution, in all cases,
but at least they form a ideal for our society to live by. That
certain rights are inherent in a just society - that people have a
right to free speech & association, that even criminals have a right
to a fair trial, even horrible people can't be given "cruel & unusual
punishments." Justice should be blind & fair; not doled out based on
cronyism or connections. Human rights are not a "relatively new"
concept, especially at the time the books were written. The Geneva
Convention, Hague conventions, international laws have all created &
guaranteed basic human rights. Yet the concept of basic "human rights"
seem to have little or no relevance in the WW. Arbitrary punishments,
restrictions on free speech, cruel punishment & oppression are the
norm. And I see, more & more, that these norms are being internalized
by the trio themselves. And it is this very internal cruelty, this
inability to allow freedom & rights, that guarantees that the WW will
always be a relatively oppressive & unstable society.


> Goddlefrood:
>
> I could not agree with this as there is too little to go on.
> Each of the sentient beings mentioned above have a liaison
> office and there is some legislation governing them. That
> witches and wizards have prejudice against some of these
> magical beings is not something that can be legislated away.
> There are sex discrimination laws and race relations laws
> in the real world that do not always work. Sometimes they
> go too far too.

lizzyben04:
If the sentient beings are so content & happy, why do we keep hearing
about "goblin rebellions"? (Unlike Harry, I paid attention during
History of Magic!) How do we know that elves weren't finally beaten
into submission after 1000 years of persecution? And even if they were
oppressed & persecuted, we're not going to learn about it from the
Ministry of Magic. Like any oppressive society, they've got to keep
the "truth" silenced in order to maintain the established order. When
Harry goes into the MOM, he sees a statue of the "sentient beings"
gazing rapturously & submissively up at the noble wizards. Harry
notices that their gazes seem fake & odd, and that the statue's gold
is chipped. Harry knows, on some level, that the "official" view of
wizarding society is false & fake.


> > Lizzyben04
>
> > People who are unhappy with the Ministry will still form
> > their own "clubs" & "armies", as Dumbledore & Slughorn did,
> > eventually either furthering the corruption or taking over
> > the Ministry.
>
> Goddlefrood:
>
> Quite possibly, but where is there a law in the WW of which we
> are aware that prohibits this? The MoM seems to have no real
> problem with the Order, and why would it, it is ostensibly
> opposing a common enemy. That stands whatever else might be
> said of the MoM or any specific employees of it.

lizzyben04:
Oh, I think the MOM does have a problem with the Order. Fudge gets
paranoid that Dumbledore is building an army, and he really wasn't too
far off. The only problem is, Dumbledore & the order are too powerful
to control. They couldn't imprison DD if they tried, and if DD wanted
to, he could probably take over the Ministry in a day. They tried to
infiltrate Umbridge to weaken DD's power, but that didn't work either.
The Order is like Hizbollah, a paramilitary group that's too powerful
for the "official" gov. to stop. So they collaborate (for now). If V
leaves, the organizations would quickly be at odds.

No, there isn't a law that stops outside groups from forming (nor
should there be), but my point is that these groups exist at all
because the MOM is so corrupt, weak & unjust. When there isn't a
reliable justice system, people will look to outside authorities to
either combat the system or exploit it. When the system itself is this
rotten, third parties will always arise to fill the power vacuum, for
good or ill. Unless the MOM reforms, they'll continue to have this
problem.


> Goddlefrood:
> I would suggest that the closest we can say about the WW is,
> not my own, but the words of Lord Acton:
>
> "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
> Great men are almost always bad men."

lizzyben04:
That's true, power tends to corrupt. And power has corrupted the Trio,
even if they still aren't aware of it. "Lord of the Rings" was a
masterpiece, because it examined the ways that power corrupts, and
allows evil to flourish. Men want the ring "of power", but become
corrupted & evil because of it. Frodo, a good person, is ultimately
sucked in at the end to grab the power for himself.  The danger isn't
only from the evil around them, but from the evil *within* them.

I don't see a similar examination of power in HP. IMO, the trio are
losing the moral battle, because they're trying on the ring & liking
the power, and they're feeling more & more comfortable using "evil"
means to accomplish their goals. We should be disturbed by this, but
the books portray evil as something that only "others" have -
Slytherins, Death Eaters, etc. - so that the heroes never have to even
consider whether their own actions might be evil or wrong. That's a
real flaw, IMO.