Marietta

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 169631

> Lanval:
> *raises hand* I'm certainly in agreement on both.
> 
> One more thing though, just because I've seen it mentioned at 
least 
> twice now in the discussion: is there any canon that Marietta's 
> pimples (yes, that's what they're called in HBP, not pustules, and 
I 
> don't recall them ever described as 'oozing sores'...) are still 
> there at the end of HBP?
> The only reference I can think of is at the very beginning of HBP, 
> on the train, which would make it September 1. We know she ratted 
> out the DA sometimes in April, just before Easter. So that would 
> make it about four and a half months. Meaning that "Marietta still 
> is disfigured more than a year later" should be considered 
> conjecture and has no support in canon, unless I've overlooked it, 
> of course. The theory that she's improving, on the other hand, has 
> *some* support (horrible purple pustules have become "an odd 
> formation of pimples" that are hidden under a thick layer of make-
> up; no more balaclava.). Anyhow, the notion that 'Hermione has 
> permanently disfigured Marietta' remains IMO unfounded until 
> proven.

Magpie:
It's not proven, but it's certainly not unfounded. Had Marietta 
never been mentioned again after OotP I would have assumed the 
pustules went away. But since Rowling went out of her way to say 
they were still there a book later, why would I assume they'll go 
away unless I'm told otherwise? The information I'm given says they 
*don't* go away. I think it's logical to assume, having been told in 
HBP that they last from one book to another, that they will continue 
to do so until I'm told otherwise. If I had reason to believe they 
went away there wouldn't be an issue. Just as, forinstance, Harry 
showing Scrimgeour his scarred hand in HBP makes it clear that the 
scar isn't fading and is now just there.

One could try to figure out whether an odd formation of pimples 
covered by heavy make-up is an improvement or merely what the same 
pustules look like when covered by heavy-make up which is there to 
cover them up, but that wouldn't be necessary if she wasn't shoved 
in our face again so that Harry could feel pleased. (That she's got 
them, not that she's improving, of course.) To go a step further, I 
don't think she should have pimples any more either. Everybody 
else's troubles cause by Marietta have been fixed. Her face can go 
back to normal, imo. For Hermione's sake as well as Marietta's.

I think that given JKR reminded us that this was still going on it's 
reading against canon to think they went away. If she's never 
mentioned again I'll be left thinking that maybe they did...but I 
think I'd always assume otherwise. Why didn't JKR just leave it out 
or tell us they're going away if not to say they weren't? I can't 
believe she really expected us to read the thing in HBP and run back 
to OotP to split hairs between the baclava and the heavy-make up. I 
assumed she just found different ways to cover it up and found more 
make-up over the summer.

Dana:
Marietta was at the meeting in the Hogs Head right? So she was
informed about what the DA was going to do so she could have made a
choice right then and there.

And if she made up her mind to not be part of this group any longer
because she didn't believe in the philosophy of this group then she
was free to leave at any time. So why did she not just do that? Why
did she need to rat them out. Was there a need for her to do so just
because she did not believe in the DA anymore? 

Magpie:
We don't know, since we're not in her pov. She didn't like the group 
already when she signed up before it was illegal, but it certainly 
makes sense to me that she might have felt a *growing* problem with 
it that made her finally disclose it. You don't have to convince me 
that she should have walked away right then. I don't think she did 
anything right the whole time. I'm not defending the fact that she 
did it, but I can believe she thought she should report them rather 
than just stop going to the meetings. I don't really know what the 
deal was beyond the hints Cho starts to give. I might not think her 
reasons for doing it justified doing it. I'd probably still want the 
pimples off her face now and have trouble with Hermione's hex.

Dana:
Marietta ratted them out because she was afraid that she would be
associated with them if Umbridge found out through other means and if
you are right that she did not want to oppose the Ministry because
she did not believe Harry's and DD's claim that LV was back, then she
made a political decision to hand them over to the Ministry. She did
not merely told on her fellow students but told on a group believing
in a different truth then the Ministry did.

Magpie:
We don't know that Marietta ratted them out because she was afraid 
taht she would be associated with them if Umbridge found out any 
more than we know anything else. Though that's certainly a 
possibility. It would be a cowardly reason for ratting them out, 
definitely. But you can say it's the canonical reason. It's just the 
reason you've given yourself.

Dana:
You are comparing oranges and apples in my opinion. Marietta
willingly joined up the DA, saw with her own eyes what they did and
it was nothing more then learning defensive spells and not dark magic
to defeat any enemy but if she truly believed them to be dangerous
then again she made a political decision to get personally involved
in the termination of these students and therefore it makes her
decision far more then that of an innocent child and it should
therefore not be judge like that.

Magpie:
But even if she did make a political decision in that she thought 
they were dangerous so can't be judged as a child, that still 
doesn't say whether she should be judged as being hexed the way she 
was for as long as Hermione decides.

Dana:
Snape (and all his fans) always seems to forget his own
responsibilities in the actions he takes and the prank as far as we
know was nothing more then Sirius telling Snape how to get to Lupin
and Snape eagerness to get the Marauders expelled (so before the
prank materialized) was what made him go after Lupin. No one made
Snape act on this information then Snape himself and therefore if he
had gotten killed then it was indeed his own fault.

Magpie:
First, there is probably nothing that "all of [Snape's] fans" all 
do. They're different and there are a lot of them. Secondly, no, I 
do not believe it would be Snape's own fault if he had gotten 
killed. I know what Snape's actions were, and trying to find out 
what the Marauders were doing to get them in trouble or for whatever 
reason would not make it Snape's fault if he was mauled by the 
werewolf. (If we're remembering Snape's responsibilities how about 
Sirius'--he's the one deliberately doing something expellable and 
dangerous--nobody owes it to MWPP to cover that up for him.) Sirius 
told Snape how to find out what they were up to so that Snape would 
run into a werewolf that Snape didn't know was there. That puts far 
more responsibility on Sirius. As Sirius himself knows. He's the one 
who decided Snape deserved it.

Dana:
James prevented
it but Snape ran to DD anyway hoping that his story was enough to get
all the Marauders out of his hair once and for all. Besides it is
only Snape that stated that the Marauders played a trick on him,
Lupin doesn't say Snape was tricked into following him just that
Sirius thought it amusing to tell Snape how to get there. He actually
states "of course Snape would tried it", indicating to me
specifically that it was Snape's own choice to go there.

Magpie:
You don't know how any of this went down beyond what's in canon. And 
it's not only Snape who says they played a trick. Lupin says it 
was "a stupid prank." Nobody disagrees with Snape's version of 
events. It was not Snape's own choice to expose himself to a 
werewolf. That was not a forseeable risk. 

Dana:
And he still after 20 years tried to punish (with success) the
Marauders what they did to him while actually he did it to himself.
Curiosity killed the cat and Snape at 16 should have known better for
1) never listen to your personal enemy 2) for not knowing what he
could find as he knew Lupin disappeared every month and he saw Lupin
being brought to a murderous tree by the school nurse 3) making his
personal vengeance more important then common sense 4) not meddle
with things that are none of his business.

Magpie:
He did not do it to himself. Nor did Sirius get himself killed, or 
Harry get himself to help get Sirius killed, or Ginny get herself to 
open the Chamber of Secrets or Dudley get his own tongue blown up. 
Even the Marauders aren't so disingenuous as to try to claim they 
don't know what a prank is and who was doing the pranking.

Btw, why isn't it Hermione's fault that the DA got ratted out? Not 
only was she stupid enough to leave a list hanging up with 
everyone's name, why didn't she figure out that a person who so 
clearly didn't want to be there shouldn't be let in on secrets? 
The "if you were stupid enough to get duped it's your own fault" 
rule seems to get applied very selectively. 

Dana:
And what did Snape learn from his mistakes? He still meddles with
things that are none of his business (well unless he is expected to
do so then suddenly he can control his urges), he still puts his
personal vengeance above common sense, he still makes wrong
conclusion of information he receives and he still listens to a
supposed to be enemy and lets himself be tricked. Great lessons
learned Severus Snape but that is what you get when you never take
your responsibilities for your own actions and blame the rest of the
world if things go wrong due to the choices you make for yourself.

Magpie:
I find it ironic you're talking about taking responsibilities for 
your own actions when you're blaming the victim so blatantly. Sirius 
didn't learn from his mistakes either. Neither did Lupin. Harry's 
still making a lot of mistakes too. He's even still making some of 
the same mistakes as Snape himself.

Dana:
Well at least he is sophisticated enough to even make his fans
believe he is never responsible for anything.

Magpie:
*looks around at glass house* I wouldn't throw that stone. *whistles*

Dana:
If Sirius should have been expelled then so should Snape for meddling
with official school business and being out of bounds. 

Magpie:
That's creative. Meddling with official school business and being 
out of bounds has never been suggested to be an expellable offense. 
Roaming the countryside with a werewolf and endangering people 
actually might be. Not that it was--Sirius wasn't expelled. If I 
were a parent in the situation, with no child involved, I actually 
don't think I'd agree that the boy out of bounds deserves expulsion 
as much as the kid letting the werewolf loose. Again, not that 
either boy actually got expelled.

Dana:
Snape did not
know about the marauding they did with werewolf Lupin so he surely
could not have acted on the supposed dangers the Marauders put the
students and the villagers too and therefore he could not have acted
on them supposedly being dangerous. And if he did then he is a big
fat lair in PoA for not knowing that Peter was the rat Ron was
holding.

Magpie:
The fact that Snape did not know about the Marauding is kind of why 
he can't be said to have brought it on himself. But regardless, I 
don't see the point you're making. Snape didn't get Sirius expelled. 
He followed him to find out what they were up to. He would, even 
according to Sirius, have loved to have found something to get them 
expelled for, so obviously he wasn't clamoring for their expulsion 
just on his say-so. Later on *if* Snape demanded they be expelled 
(which does not actually appear in the book--all the stuff about 
Snape's response you've filled in yourself) afterwards it was for 
playing a deadly prank on him.

-m