Prank and various responsibilities WAS: Re: Marietta

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 169656

Alla:
> What do Snape fans have to do with this argument? No, really, 
> aren't we discussing fictional character of Snape and not his fans?

Dana:
Everything because we were not just discussing fictional characters 
but how readers apply different moral standards and moral opinion to 
each fictional characters as well and fans do fixate on the notion 
that Snape could have died and that Sirius would have been to blame 
for it (as Carol specifically states that she is of the opinion that 
Sirius should have been expelled for it). If you actually apply what 
IS known in canon about that night then by no means can one blame 
Sirius for Snape entering the willow looking for Lupin. Because canon 
does not imply that Snape was tricked into going there by the people 
telling the story, it is only Snape that relays the story in that 
way. Lupin specifically states that he was not in the know and 
neither was James but yet Snape blames all of them for ending up 
there.

After OotP the marauders bullying Snape tainted many people's 
impression of the prank but they left out the notion that the 
werewolf topic was part of the DADA exams. And when you then look 
back at what Lupin states that Snape was interested in where Lupin 
went *every* month and that Snape saw Lupin being brought to the 
willow by Madam Pomfrey one night, it should invoke the conclusion 
that Sirius had nothing to do with Snape willingly going to the 
willow, he just gave Snape information to get passed the willow. It 
is actually irrelevant what reason either Sirius or Snape had because 
it was Snape's own choice to go. Snape disregarded every warning sign 
that he came across and went anyway but suddenly it is Sirius fault 
if he had gotten killed. 

It is the reader in my opinion that applies double standards when it 
comes to characters in the books because when Snape tells another 
story of how he helped dispose of Black, he is suddenly lying. We 
actually see that Snape's recollection of how the marauders treated 
him is actually tainted because no one implies he was tricked into 
going after Lupin that night, he still holds the notion that all of 
them were in on it and it still is directing how he looks at Lupin, 
20 years after the fact. He states that it was always 4 to 1 in HBP 
while canon gives an entirely different perspective on this as well. 
Not only do we see that Lupin did not bully Snape but he also implies 
he never did because it is specifically stated that he did not tell 
Sirius and James to lay off Snape but he made them feel ashamed about 
it at times. 

Yet when Sirius, 20 years after fact, states it would have serve 
Snape right it is suddenly proof Sirius wanted Snape dead and not 
just empty words because Snape still lives and Sirius can thus state 
what ever he wants because it never happened. It is hyperbolic 
statement and because no one knows what Sirius actually would have 
thought if Snape would have died that night; it is totally irrelevant 
to determine Sirius intentions of giving Snape that specific 
information. But we do see what Snape is capable of when it comes to 
taking his revenge but still no responsibility is put into Snape 
shoes and this indeed is a fans thing and not a canon thing because 
clearly DD's decision to make Snape promise not to tell gives a 
totally different indication on what he thought about the 
responsibilities each person had in the events of that night. 

Sirius responsibility lies with Lupin, he betrayed Lupin with telling 
Snape the secret on how to get passed the willow and I believe he 
paid dearly for it when Lupin was left out of the SK switch plan and 
he lost Harry because of it because DD believed he indeed was the 
Potters secret keeper and it made DD chose to place Harry with the 
Dursley's instead of giving Sirius a chance to raise Harry as the 
Potters intended it to be. Sirius did not get away from his 
responsibilities for the choices he made but Snape fans do eliminate 
Snape's responsibilities about going to the willow in the first place 
and later by acting the way he did towards Lupin and telling on his 
secret to his students to make Lupin pay for Snape losing his 
ultimate chance for revenge. 

I never stated Snape should have died that night but it would have 
been his responsibility and only his if he did. You can't just put 
the negative effects of personal choices onto others just because it 
is negative or could have led to death. It doesn't suddenly change 
the responsibility one had for making this choice. 

Harry for instance chose to go after what he thought to be Snape in 
an attempt to safe the stone and if he had gotten killed because of 
it, it isn't suddenly Hagrid's fault for making Quirrell's attempt to 
get the stone possible, by letting himself be tricked in telling how 
to get passed Fluffy. It isn't suddenly Hagrid's fault that the trio 
could get passed Fluffy because Hagrid gave Harry a flute. Hagrid 
feels responsible and Sirius does not but that doesn't change who 
actually had responsibility in meddling with things that were none of 
their business and if Harry had gotten killed because of it then it 
was not suddenly someone else fault for the choice he made to go 
after Snape (as he thought it to be him). 

And the same excuse is applied to Marietta for joining up the DA 
because she was dragged there by Cho. It was Marietta's own choice to 
come and join up and it doesn't matter if her choice was directed 
just out of friendship with Cho at first. Marietta ratted on the DA 
in April but the DA started some time before Christmas. The 
regulation that made the DA illegal was put up right after the first 
meeting in the Hogs Head but Marietta still stayed for at least 4 
months. Just because the ratting out had a physical negative effect 
on her does not make her being a participant of this group not her 
own responsibility or that it was not her own choice to go to 
Umbridge. 
Hermione was not to blame for either one of these choices she just 
put a jinx on the paper that would come into effect if anyone decided 
to sell out their secret. The jinx was not personally directed at 
Marietta and it would have applied to Hermione herself as well if she 
had been the one going to Umbridge instead. Marietta brought it on to 
herself by making the choices she made and Hermione can't thus be 
blamed for the effect it had on Marietta. Marietta was not 
responsible for Umbridge choices after she revealled the information 
on the DA but just like Sirius her choices to tell did set of a 
rollercoaster of events that would not have happened if she had hold 
her tong.

If you want to apply blame then on should put the blame of people's 
own choices with the person that made that choice in the first place 
and not put the blame into someone else's shoes because the 
consequences of these choices had a negative affect for the one 
making that choice. 

Alla:
> He and only he is responsible for his own curiosity, but this 
> responsibility to me does not rise to the level of being dead for 
> his curiosity.
<snip>

I never said Snape deserved to die because of the choice he made 
about going after Lupin but it would nevertheless have been his own 
fault if it had happened and James prevented the worst outcome for 
both Snape's own choice and Lupin unwilling participation in it.  The 
view of Snape not having any responsibility in what happened or could 
have happened is a fan thing because they like Snape and hate the 
marauders for bullying Snape, it is not a canon thing because if you 
would actually look at this with an open mind then it is not hard to 
see that Snape made the choices he made because he wanted it. 

Snape was not a 3 year old kid that was lured to a specific place 
with the promise he would find candy there. He was 16 years old and 
he did not only have Sirius information that could have directed his 
choices but he chose to disregard them anyway and go after Lupin. If 
it was just curiosity then so be it but I doubt that it was just 
because Snape wanting to know what Lupin was up to there. Because 
Snape could have gotten that information by other means then just go 
have a look. Putting Lupin's monthly disappearances next to a lunar 
chart would have done the trick without ever putting himself into 
harms way. Sirius responsibility would not have been in Snape's dead 
but Lupin's unwillingly participation in it because Sirius thought it 
amusing to tell Snape the secret how the get passed the willow. If 
Snape never had gone there then Sirius still betrayed Lupin. 

JMHO

Dana