[HPforGrownups] Re: Rita - Luna and the Qubbler?Prank and various responsibilities

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 169664

> Magpie:
> Since *I* made no accusations to Harry (I really don't think my 
speculation
> that a reporter working for the Order could be a good guy is much 
of an
> accusation), I don't know.
<SNIP>

Alla:

NO, but the argument that had Rita been printing lies that Harry and 
Co would like, **they* would have supported her sounds like an 
accusation to me. It was your argument, was it not? Sorry if it was 
not. I mean, we are entitled to make any accusations against 
characters, so I see nothing wrong with it, but yeah, I would like 
some canon that Harry would have supported the reporter printing 
something like Rita Skeeter.

Magpie:
No, it wasn't. I think that's far too extreme to suggest that, for
instance, if Rita Skeeter printed an article that Snape...I"m trying to
think of some horrible libelous thing that Snape hasn't done, and yet
everything I come up with is something Harry seems to think he has--lol!
But I gave clear examples of what I was talking about, like when I said
that Hermione, imo, would not have a problem with a reporter printing the
story of Crouch and Winky the way *she* saw the story rather than the way
Winky did. Or, for instance, if a reporter printed a story that made Snape
responsible for getting Sirius killed. I don't think Harry would have the
same problems with that, though I he might have some twinges of it's not
being exactly true. The point was about the nature of truth and our own
povs taking precedent and seeming more true, not that Harry supports
deliberate smear campaigns in the press.


Mgapie:
> So regardless, let me try to drag this back to what I was actually 
saying.
> We were talking about Rita. It was brought up that Rita deserved 
to be
> blackmailed because she printed lies. 
<SNIP>

Alla:

Since originally I think it was a response to my post, I have to 
say - NO. I did not say that or at least was not planning to. I said 
or at least was trying to say that I **understand** and sympathise 
why Hermione blackmailed Rita, not that she deserved to.

Magpie:
Yes, you're right. I knew that at the time but I mentioned it sloppily
there.

Magpie:
And that led for me to speculate--and I still hold to this based
> on what I've seen of Harry's reactions to things--that if there 
was a
> reporter committed to the Order agenda who printed articles that 
were
> always helpful to Harry and the Order, using the same skills Rita 
uses for
> her agenda, that he would be a good guy. It wasn't an attack on 
Harry. <SNIP>

Alla:

Eh well, okay, but to me Harry supporting doing what Rita does - 
**is** a negative action no matter to whom it is referred. It is 
your right to point that out that you think is possible. I think it 
is not and think that your speculation is **NOT** supported by the 
canon or since it is speculation, I should say not canon rooted, 
that's all.

Magpie:
I think it's rooted in Harry liking to have people say stuff that supports
the way he likes to hear it because that's the more important truth, imo.
For instance, he doesn't like Rita printing an article about Hagrid that
says everyone is terrified of him. But he also doesn't like Hermione making
any comments about Hagrid having flaws as a teacher. I have a very hard
time imagining Harry reading an article where Rita had completely praised
Hagrid and said all the kids felt about his class the way Harry does and
that there was never any issues with the anmals, and getting upset about it
because it's not really true. I think he would probably acknowledge to
himself that it wasn't completely true because try as he might he's never
been able to completely deny his own doubts about the class, but if Malfoy
protested I think Harry would say he thought the article was great and
would be happy to be quoted in it saying everybody loved Hagrid. It's never
happened in canon so I can't say it is canon, but it that seems more in
character than a Harry who had a problem with an article like that. That's
what Rita does. She takes certain facts and spins them one way or the
other. Harry did not like the "Monster-Crazed Teacher Running Amock" spin,
but I can't conceive of him protesting a "Lovable Giant the Kids'
Favorite!" spin.

Dana:
Harry for instance chose to go after what he thought to be Snape in 
an attempt to safe the stone and if he had gotten killed because of 
it, it isn't suddenly Hagrid's fault for making Quirrell's attempt to 
get the stone possible, by letting himself be tricked in telling how 
to get passed Fluffy. It isn't suddenly Hagrid's fault that the trio 
could get passed Fluffy because Hagrid gave Harry a flute. Hagrid 
feels responsible and Sirius does not but that doesn't change who 
actually had responsibility in meddling with things that were none of 
their business and if Harry had gotten killed because of it then it 
was not suddenly someone else fault for the choice he made to go 
after Snape (as he thought it to be him). 

Magpie:
The weird thing is that I agree with most of your examples. The problem is
that--and I think this is what you're accusing other people doing--you are
still drawing a magic circle of no responsiblity around certain characters.
A prank is a prank. It's someone intentionally taking steps to make
something happen based on things they know about a situation and the people
involved. Sirius doesn't make Snape go into the tunnel, but Sirius set up
the situation to lure Snape into the tunnel, based not only on Snape's
character as he knew it but on Snape's lack of information.

*Sirius* knew what Snape would be facing--that was the whole part of the
joke (which I think was supposed to scare Snape, not kill him--I don't
think this is an attempted murder). Snape did not--you seem to be
re-writing things so that Snape did know, which would make it a different
thing, but canonically so far he didn't. Or else you're making Snape's
stupidity at not knowing as good as his knowing, which I don't think holds
up. It's perfectly possible Snape didn't know Lupin was a werewolf--no one
involved seems to suggest that he did. If Snape was going into the tunnel
intentionally trying to face off with a werewolf, obviously Sirius now
bears less responsibility since all he did was tell Snape how to do what he
was making an informed decision to do.

But that's not a Prank, and that's what everyone agrees that it was. Snape
was supposed to be surprised by what he found in the tunnel and get scared,
which would be funny. As in, "You want to know what we've got in there so
much, here you go!" In that case Snape didn't know he was facing anything
deadly--why should he, when he was doing exactly what Sirius did, as far as
he knew? That does give Sirius responsibility, a responsibility he himself
never denies. He thought Snape deserved to get Pranked for being nosy and
trying to follow them, so he used Snape's ignorance of the werewolf and
MWPP being Animagi to trick him into a situation beyond what he thought he
was getting into. Yes, he used Snape's own bad intentions against him. Most
if not all cons do. But that doesn't make the con artist not the one
pulling the con.

Marietta, by contrast, holds sole responsibility for everything she did,
obviously. The only place where she was tricked was into jinxing herself
without knowing it--and if I were in the DA (meaning a DA member who wasn't
a Snitch) I would have been furious to discover Hermione had tricked and
hexed me the same way. 

Dana:
The jinx was not personally directed at 
Marietta and it would have applied to Hermione herself as well if she 
had been the one going to Umbridge instead. Marietta brought it on to 
herself by making the choices she made and Hermione can't thus be 
blamed for the effect it had on Marietta. 

Magpie:
Yes, it can. You're drawing that magic circle again, imo. Marietta is
responsible for deciding to join an organization she already wasn't
comfortable with and for ratting them out. Hermione is responsible for the
hex, period. She's the one who worked it out and cast it and asked people
to sign the paper without telling them it was there. Marietta's pustules
don't spring up out of nowhere. They're not a natural response to what
Marietta did, they were a hex placed by Hermione in pre-emptive revenge
against someone crossing her. Hermione and Hermione alone's decision and
responsiblity. And like Sirius, Hermione doesn't deny this. Neither does
Harry. Neither of them wants to. They want credit for Hermione's sole
responsibility for Marietta continuing to be disfigured. It shows what
happens when you cross them.

Dana:
If you want to apply blame then on should put the blame of people's 
own choices with the person that made that choice in the first place 
and not put the blame into someone else's shoes because the 
consequences of these choices had a negative affect for the one 
making that choice. 

Magpie:
Right, which is why Marietta gets blamed for joining the group and ratting
the group out and Hermione gets blamed for her own hex. When I say that imo
the hex has gone on too long, that opinion would go to Hermione, not
Marietta. Hermione's the one in charge of the hex, not Marietta. I suspect
if Hermione's mother knew anything about it she would say the same thing.
(Obviously that's not a canonical assumption since I don't know.)

Dana:
Snape was not a 3 year old kid that was lured to a specific place 
with the promise he would find candy there.

Magpie:
Snape was actually very much like a three year old kid lured to a specific
place with a promise he'd find candy there. Sirius was counting on that. I
don't judge Snape as a 3 year old, but his being sixteen doesn't change the
nature of the lure so much that it doesn't become a lure anymore. All the
ways Snape could have found out that Lupin was a werewolf before that
didn't happen (and seem far more obvious once you know the truth than they
did before that--a werewolf at Hogwarts would probably have been considered
an impossibility at that point). Snape was doing what Sirius did without
bad consequences every month. Sirius' trick was based not just on Snape's
lust for learning a secret of MWPP or getting them in trouble, but on his
ignorance of the danger. If Snape understood the danger, there's no Prank.

-sm (whose sign-offs have been magically disappearing lately so she's
trying to make them longer)