Rita - Luna and the Qubbler?Prank and various responsibilities

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 169690

Magpie:
> The weird thing is that I agree with most of your examples. The 
> problem it that--and I think this is what you're accusing other 
> people doing--you are still drawing a magic circle of no 
> responsiblity around certain characters A prank is a prank. It's 
> someone intentionally taking steps to make something happen based 
> on things they know about a situation and the peopleinvolved. 
> Sirius doesn't make Snape go into the tunnel, but Sirius set up
> the situation to lure Snape into the tunnel, based not only on 
> Snape's character as he knew it but on Snape's lack of information.
<snip>

Dana:
No, I'm not creating a magical circle of no responsibility just 
because I do not blame Sirius for Snape's decisions and thus the 
consequences of these decisions. Sirius is to blame for revealing 
Lupin's secret and getting Lupin involved in something he had no 
choice in and providing Snape with a way to get passed the willow. 
This decision had consequences that James eliminated by dragging 
Snape out (for the most part as I do believe it had other 
consequences as well). But it still does not make Sirius responsible 
for Snape's choice to follow up on the information he got from him. 

Magpie:
> *Sirius* knew what Snape would be facing--that was the whole part 
> of the joke (which I think was supposed to scare Snape, not kill 
> him--I don't think this is an attempted murder). Snape did not--you 
> seem to be re-writing things so that Snape did know, which would 
> make it a different thing, but canonically so far he didn't. Or 
> else you're making Snape's stupidity at not knowing as good as his 
> knowing, which I don't think holds up. 
<snip>


Dana:
It is your opinion that I'm re-writing things but the problem with 
this suggestion is that Lupin did state that Snape was interested in 
knowing were Lupin went *every* month and that Snape *saw* Lupin 
being brought to the willow by Madam Pomfrey and we see that the DADA 
OWL included information about werewolves and that a third year with 
that same information could reveal Lupin's furry problem without ever 
having to go to Lupin's office to have a look if she was right. And 
she only observed Lupin for less then a school year when she found 
this out. Snape had at least 5 years to come to a conclusion about 
where Lupin went and even if he never wondered about this before then 
he still had enough information to make a well informed conclusion on 
what he could find. 
Snape at least could have known that Sirius telling Snape how to get 
passed the willow so Snape could spy on his friend could never have 
been well intentioned. 

It was not implied that Sirius did not mention no one was there to 
find at the end of the tunnel, as it was specifically stated that 
Sirius told Snape all he had to do was prod the knot and he would be 
able to go after Lupin. 

Magpie:
> But that's not a Prank, and that's what everyone agrees that it 
> was. Snape was supposed to be surprised by what he found in the 
> tunnel and get scared, which would be funny. As in, "You want to 
> know what we've got in there so much, here you go!" In that case 
> Snape didn't know he was facing anything deadly--why should he, 
> when he was doing exactly what Sirius did, as far as he knew? That 
> does give Sirius responsibility, a responsibility he himself never 
> denies. He thought Snape deserved to get Pranked for being nosy and
> trying to follow them, so he used Snape's ignorance of the werewolf 
> and MWPP being Animagi to trick him into a situation beyond what he 
> thought he was getting into. Yes, he used Snape's own bad 
> intentions against him. Most if not all cons do. But that doesn't 
> make the con artist not the one pulling the con.

Dana:
You would have been correct if it wasn't already specifically stated 
that Snape would find Lupin on the other side of the willow or if 
Snape wasn't already very interested in what was going on with Lupin 
to notice he disappeared *every* month. That means Snape was snooping 
around to get more information about what Lupin was up to for more 
then just one month or just that night. The willow was forbidden 
territory and Lupin was hidden behind it and Sirius as is stated told 
Snape Lupin was behind the tree. 
And so to me Snape could have known what he could find when he went 
after Lupin. Snape had too much information that could have told him 
what he could find by entering the tunnel and thus to make a well 
informed decision to go and it is not me re-writing canon as it is 
specifically stated as such. And I believe that is why Sirius did not 
feel responsible if Snape had gotten more then he could chew because 
it was Snape himself that decided to go. 

Lupin mentioning that from that moment on Snape knew what he was is 
to me an irrelevant statement to conclude Snape did not know already. 
Sirius and James found out what Lupin was without ever seeing him, 
Hermione found out what Lupin was without ever seeing him and so 
Snape could have found out what Lupin was without ever seeing him 
too, just by merely putting the information he already got on Lupin's 
monthly disappearances and hold them next to a lunar chart. Snape 
already knew from the exams that werewolves transform on the full 
moon and he already knew that Lupin went somewhere every month. Is 
Snape really that dumb? He already knew Lupin was behind the tree 
that was off limits to all students and he had seen that Lupin was 
not just playing around but being brought there by the school nurse. 

This is information from canon and not my imagination and my way to 
clear Sirius of any blame because Sirius provided Snape a way and he 
is responsible for that part but that part alone when it considers 
Snape. It does not matter what way Sirius got Snape to go because it 
was still Snape's choice to do so and he disregarded all the 
information that canon says he did know. If he was too stupid to pull 
all the information together and make a well informed decision then 
this would still not Sirius fault. 

If I get into a car with a drunk driver who told me that he could 
still drive and I get involved in a terrible accident because of it 
then I am still to blame for getting in the car while I knew that 
this person should not be trusted behind the wheel. The person 
himself has the responsibility of driving while drunk but he did not 
force me to get into the car, I still had a choice. 

That is my point Snape might not have wanted to face a werewolf or he 
might have thought he knew enough about DA that he could handle it or 
Sirius pushed the right buttons for Snape to want to proof that he 
was no coward or whatever, it was still Snape that made the decision 
to take a stick and prod the knot and go into the tunnel. You can't 
blame Sirius for that just because Sirius brought the information in 
a for Snape tempting way to try it. Let me ask you this question, 
would Snape have jump through hoops if Sirius had tricked him into 
doing that? I do not think so, Sirius provided Snape with information 
that Snape was very interested in and Snape used that information 
because he chose to use it. 

It is the same as stating Snape told Sirius to stay behind and he did 
not, so Snape tried to keep Sirius safe. No, he did not and it would 
not have mattered what Snape would have told Sirius when it concerned 
Harry because no one but Harry and maybe DD could have made Sirius 
stay behind in a situation like that. I do not hold Snape or anyone 
responsible for that. Draco lured Harry to the tower in PS for a 
midnight fight but Draco had no intention of showing up and just 
wanted Harry to get into trouble. Is Draco responsible for getting 
Harry into trouble or was it Harry's own choice to respond to Draco's 
invitation? 

Magpie:
> Marietta, by contrast, holds sole responsibility for everything she 
> did, obviously. The only place where she was tricked was into 
> jinxing herself without knowing it--and if I were in the DA 
> (meaning a DA member who wasn't a Snitch) I would have been furious 
> to discover Hermione had tricked and hexed me the same way.
<snip>

Dana:
This I agree with because at least everyone signing the paper was 
entitled to know what could happen if they signed it and it would 
have given people the choice not to do so and walk away. 
 
Magpie:
> Yes, it can. You're drawing that magic circle again, imo. Marietta 
> is responsible for deciding to join an organization she already 
> wasn't comfortable with and for ratting them out. Hermione is 
> responsible for the hex, period. She's the one who worked it out 
> and cast it and asked people to sign the paper without telling them 
> it was there. 
<snip>

Dana:
No, I again am not drawing a magical circle of anything because 
Marietta made a choice to join up an organization, comfortably or 
not, it does not matter. It was still her own choice to do so because 
even though personal choices can be directed by the way we interact 
with our environment, like friends for instance, we are not puppets 
that have no say in the matter what so ever. Marietta could have 
walked away at any time she liked and if she had not gone to 
Umbridge, she, like any other member of the DA, would never have had 
the word Sneak on her face. The jinx did not prevent anyone from 
walking away if they felt they did no longer wanted to be associated 
with it, for what ever reason. 

The jinx did not make Marietta rat on the DA and therefore Hermione 
is not responsible for Marietta ending up with the pustules even if 
Hermione should have told this before anyone signed it. Hermione did 
not take away any free choices even if I agree that she should have 
told that the parchment was jinxed. Marietta came to the hogs head on 
her own free choice convinced by Cho or not, she signed the paper on 
her own free choice with or without knowing about the jinx, she 
stayed for 4 months out of free choice and then she went to Umbridge 
out of free choice. With signing the parchment Marietta agreed not to 
go to Umbridge and if she was not sure that she could live up to that 
then she had a choice not to sign and therefore not agree. 

Hermione or Sirius not denying that they did what they did does not 
mean they therefore should take responsibility for the actions of 
that person because it resulted or could have resulted in something 
negative for that specific person. Hermione did not jinx Marietta, 
she jinxed the parchment and Marietta herself made the jinx come into 
to action. Marietta would not have had to have the word Sneak written 
all over her face if she had hold her tong and neither did Snape have 
to go into the tunnel because Sirius said so. 
 
Magpie:
> Right, which is why Marietta gets blamed for joining the group and 
> ratting the group out and Hermione gets blamed for her own hex. 
> When I say that imo the hex has gone on too long, that opinion 
> would go to Hermione, not Marietta. Hermione's the one in charge of 
> the hex, not Marietta. I suspect if Hermione's mother knew anything 
> about it she would say the same thing.(Obviously that's not a 
> canonical assumption since I don't know.)

Dana:
Well I don't know if it went on long enough, maybe it did but Harry 
is still feeling the after effect of what Marietta set in motion so 
maybe Hermione doesn't feel obligated to help Marietta and it seems 
that in HBP the jinx is wearing of on its own. 

Magpie:
> Snape was actually very much like a three year old kid lured to a 
> specific place with a promise he'd find candy there. Sirius was 
> counting on that. I don't judge Snape as a 3 year old, but his 
> being sixteen doesn't change the nature of the lure so much that it 
> doesn't become a lure anymore. All the ways Snape could have found 
> out that Lupin was a werewolf before that didn't happen (and seem 
> far more obvious once you know the truth than they did before that--
> a werewolf at Hogwarts would probably have been considered an 
> impossibility at that point). Snape was doing what Sirius did 
> without bad consequences every month. Sirius' trick was based not 
> just on Snape's lust for learning a secret of MWPP or getting them 
> in trouble, but on his ignorance of the danger. If Snape understood 
> the danger, there's no Prank.

Dana:
So Sirius being rash is Sirius responsibility but Snape being rash 
and not thinking and letting himself be guided by his own urges is 
also Sirius responsibility? 
What I meant with a 3 year old being lured somewhere is that a three 
year old can not process information coming to him or her in the same 
way a teenager or an adult could have and so no I do not see the 
comparison you make here. Sirius might have counted on his ability of 
playing Snape like a violin but that does not take away Snape's own 
responsibility in making the choices he made.  He might not have 
wanted to put himself in harms way but Sirius did not physically put 
him there either. It was still Snape picking up the stick and giving 
himself access to the tunnel behind the willow and at this moment 
canon implies he knew he would find Lupin there because Sirius told 
him how to get to him. Snape knew 4 things 1) that Lupin went 
somewhere every month 2) that he was brought to the willow by the 
schoolnurse 3) that Sirius was his enemy and a friend to Lupin 4) he 
had learned about werewolves during classes and even already passed 
his exams including this topic as well. 5) that he could get to Lupin 
by passing the willow that night because Sirius told him. 

I do not buy Snape could not know Lupin was a werewolf because there 
was no werewolf at Hogwarts before (and not after either) for the 
simple fact that James and Sirius found out what Lupin was without 
this knowledge either and they didn't even learned anything about 
werewolves in class and they were either 11 or 12. Hermione could 
never dream that DD would hire a werewolf as there never before was a 
teacher who was a werewolf but with the information she gathered she 
could still figure it out and she was 14 at that time. So Snape is 
either truly not that intelligent and therefore could not have 
figured it out, after all the information he had or he could have but 
chose to disregard it anyway because Sirius pushed the right buttons. 

It is just like with Narcissa she played Snape like a violin and 
directed him precisely were she wanted him to go but it was still 
Snape that walked into her web with both eyes open and he still 
agreed to take the vow, no one made him do it. You make Sirius into a 
professional con-artist here that, unlike you credit Snape, knew 
precisely what he was doing and did not get carried away in the 
moment. Sirius is a person that is indeed rash, that acts before he 
thinks but Snape is not, he is cunning and calculated and from what 
we have seen I do not think it was Sirius counting on Snape to ignore 
the dangers because Snape is not a person that takes personal risks 
if he can avoid them. To be honest with you the only thing I can 
think off that would push Snape's buttons and make him extremely 
angry about losing control over it later, is him being called a 
coward. And like with the vow I still think, it was Bella calling 
Snape a coward that initiated Snape wanting to proof himself to 
Narcissa.  We see that the coward issue is the only thing (well 
besides him not getting his revenge) that makes Snape lose his cool 
and it is the one thing that he smears all over Sirius face in OotP. 
It is just an assumption but I would not be surprised if it was this 
tune that Sirius played that Snape could not resist. But even if it 
was then it was still Snape's own choice to proof he wasn't a coward.

JMHO

Dana