What Did Snape Know? (Was: Prank and various responsibilities)

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 169696

 > 
> > Dana:
> > You would have been correct if it wasn't already specifically stated 
> > that Snape would find Lupin on the other side of the willow or if 
> > Snape wasn't already very interested in what was going on with Lupin 
> > to notice he disappeared *every* month. That means Snape was snooping 
> > around to get more information about what Lupin was up to for more 
> > then just one month or just that night. The willow was forbidden 
> > territory and Lupin was hidden behind it and Sirius as is stated told 
> > Snape Lupin was behind the tree. 
> > And so to me Snape could have known what he could find when he went 
> > after Lupin. 

wynnleaf
Yes, Snape knew that he'd find Lupin if he went in the tunnel, but if
Snape already knew Lupin was a werewolf, why go in at *all?*  Of
course he didn't know Lupin was transforming into a werewolf in there.
 We haven't got the slightest bit of canon that says he did, either. 
And it makes it just ridiculous that he'd go into that tree if he knew
a werewolf was on the other side.

Dana
Snape had too much information that could have told him 
> > what he could find by entering the tunnel and thus to make a well 
> > informed decision to go and it is not me re-writing canon as it is 
> > specifically stated as such. 

wynnleaf
Well, where is it specifically stated "as such?"  What do you mean "as
such?"  "As such" implies that somewhere in canon it's specifically
stated that Snape had enough info to tell him what he'd find in the
tunnel.  Sorry, that's not stated in canon.  All we know from canon is
that Snape wondered where Lupin went every month and had seen Pomfrey
and Lupin "crossing the grounds" one evening "as she led" Lupin to the
tree.  It's not actually stated that Snape saw Lupin and Pomfrey go in
the tree.  So that automatically means he knew Lupin was a werewolf?  

The entire school of Hogwarts knew for a solid academic year that
Lupin was absent every month and *no one* figured out that he was a
werewolf except for Hermione who had the added info about his taking a
potion.  The whole of one 3rd year class (and maybe the other 3rd
years, but we didn't see their class) even got to see Lupin's boggart
and *still* didn't figure it out.  But, Dana, you assume that Snape
had knew, solely because Lupin was gone each month.  Big assumption,
I'd say, especially since Snape didn't have Lupin as a teacher, just
another kid in another house, and might not notice for ages that he
was gone monthly as opposed to just every so often.

Dana
And I believe that is why Sirius did not 
> > feel responsible if Snape had gotten more then he could chew because 
> > it was Snape himself that decided to go. 

wynnleaf
No canon for that, of course.  What Sirius actually *said* had nothing
to do with Snape's responsibility due to it being Snape's decision. 
Instead, Sirius said that Snape's sneaking around trying to get them
expelled was why it "served him right" rather than "it served him
right" because it was his own decision to enter the tree.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> I'm curious about what Snape actually knew and when he knew it.  
> When exactly did he see Madam Pomphrey leading Lupin to the tree?  A 
> month earlier?  Six months?  A year?

wynnleaf
Interesting question.  As I mentioned above, the entire school of
Hogwarts experienced the very noticeable absence of Lupin on a monthly
basis for an entire school year and only one person figured out that
he was a werewolf.  And they even had Snape making them do a lesson on
werewolves.  I guess, according to JKR and canon, it really *wasn't*
that easy to figure out that Lupin was a werewolf, just by his being
gone monthly.  According to JKR and canon, it wasn't even easy to work
it out if you know he's absent every month *and* you get a lesson on
werewolves.

Montavilla47:
> The Marauders slept in the same room as Lupin.  So, they wouldn't be 
> able to help but notice that he was gone *every* month.  For Snape, in
> another house, this would be far less evident.  

wynnleaf,
Quite correct.  Unlike the students of Hogwarts, who would each have
been very much aware every time Lupin was absent, a student in one
house would be unlikely to notice the specific nature of the absences
of a student in another house.

Montavilla47:
Harry doesn't have many
> classes in common with Slytherin students.  In first and second year,
> the only classes they had in common were Potions.  So, if Draco had
> been disappearing for one or two days a month, it's not likely that he
> even know about more than one or two of those disappearances a year.
> 
> Unless he's watching the Slytherin table during meals to check if
Draco's
> there.  Which, being Harry, he might.  On the other hand, would he 
> necessarily notice if Crabbe, Goyle, or Theodore Nott were missing?  Of
> course not.

wynnleaf
This is also a good point because it appears, although not for sure,
that attacks on Snape that were started by the Marauders were more
likely to be started by James and Sirius, and Lupin was less likely to
actually take part.  So -- like Harry noticing Draco more than Crabbe
and Goyle -- Snape, if he was going to be noticing the comings and
goings of the Marauders, would be more likely to focus on James and
Sirius.

Montavilla47:
> Hermione had at least one more clue than Snape would have had about
> Lupin.  She saw his boggart and recognized it as the moon.  If Harry
told
> her about that interesting scene in Lupin's office, then she'd also
have 
> the clue that Lupin was taking some special potion for his condition.

wynnleaf
She did know about the potion as Harry told Hermione and Ron about
Snape giving Lupin his potion.

Montavilla47:
 when I try to imagine the Prank as described, it doesn't make a lot
of sense.
> 
> If I saw an adult woman in authority leading a teenage boy out to
> a tunnel at night, I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that he was a 
> werewolf.  I'd think they were having an affair.  

wynnleaf
Good point.  So would I.  But we don't know how old Pomfrey is, which
would have a lot to do with whether another student might suspect that.

Montavilla47:
> And just where was Snape when James did the hero thing?  If he was 
> inside the tunnel, was Lupin already transformed?  I can't quite see
> a stag fitting in a tunnel, or being able to fend off a werewolf if
it were,
> simply because the horns would get caught on the top of the tunnel.
> 
> And if James did transform, then Snape would need to be unconscious,
> or the animagus secret would be out.  And somehow I can't imagine all
> this fuss if James had caught Snape *before* they encountered Lupin. 
> Although, I can see James trying to warn Snape inside the tunnel and 
> Snape brushing him off.  But, in that case, one or both of them would
> end up running into Lupin.

wynnleaf
We are told that Snape "glimpsed" Lupin in werewolf form.  However,
Lupin's explanation of the event is a bit contradictory.  On the one
hand, he said that James "went after Snape and pulled him back, at
great risk to his life."  We know it *must* have been at great risk to
James' life because Snape ended up with a life debt.  But then Lupin
said that "Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel" which
makes it sound almost as though James and Snape were far down at one
end, while the werewolf was far at the other end and Snape could just
"glimpse" Lupin.  But if that was the case, James would not have been
at much risk of his life.  In my opinion, Lupin has a habit of skewing
his comments to make things seem less bad than they are, so I wouldn't
be surprised if Snape and James were a lot closer to the werewolf than
it seems in Lupin's account.

As regards James transforming.  If James could have transformed in the
tunnel, he wouldn't have been risking his life much, since he could
always protect himself by transforming.  However, in descriptions of
the tunnel it appears rather cramped, so it may be that it was too
small for James to transform inside into Prongs, in which case he
didn't have that option.

Lupin also says, "from that time on he knew what I was" thereby
directly contradicting any theory that Snape knew Lupin was a werewolf
prior to going into the tunnel.  Ah, canon!

Montavilla47:
<big snips>
> It all makes much more sense to me if the "action" took place outside
> the tunnel.  Unless that tunnel is a lot bigger than it seems to be.
>

wynnleaf
As you see from Lupin's comments, Snape was in the tunnel and saw
Lupin in werewolf form.  James, in regular human form, pulled him out
of the tunnel.  Snape never saw anyone in animagus form, at least as
far as we're told.

wynnleaf