Prank and various responsibilities WAS: Re: Marietta

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 169737

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dana" <ida3 at ...> wrote:

> Dana:
> Well I'm not specifically thinking Snape went into the Shack because 
> he had the intention to kill Lupin but just for argument sack; Didn't 
> Snape hate James's guts for saving his life? 

wynnleaf
According to Sirius and Lupin, James and Snape hated each other from
the first, not since 6th year when the prank took place.  It's so
obvious in the 5th year Worst Memory scene, we *know* the hate didn't
come from the werewolf incident.  Perhaps you're misinterpreting this
comment by Dumbledore in PS/SS:

"Well, they did rather detest each other.  Not unlike yourself and Mr.
Malfoy.  And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive."  

"What?"

"He saved his life."  

Dumbledore goes on to say, "Professor Snape couldn't bear being in
your father's debt... I do believe he worked so hard to protect you
this year because he felt that would make him and your father even. 
Then he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace..."  

Snape already hated James.  When James saved his life, it seemed to
get in the way of Snape hating James' memory "in peace," so he wanted
to discharge the debt.  He didn't hate James beginning in 6th year due
to James saving his life.  He'd hated him long before that.

Dana
It seems to imply he'd 
> rather not have James safed him at all.

wynnleaf
Snape made it clear that he didn't appreciate what he felt was the
Marauder's attempt to kill him.  His fury over Sirius in POA included
his comments to DD that Sirius had tried to kill him.  So it looks
more like he'd "rather not have" had his life put in jeopardy in the
first place.  And Snape also made it clear in POA that he felt all of
the Marauders were involved -- which naturally includes James, who
Snape thought just got cold feet.  

Your comment implies that Snape not liking James saving his life means
that Snape *wanted* to face a werewolf.  If that were the case, he
wouldn't have much reason to be angry at Sirius.

Dana
 So maybe Snape at the time 
> didn't feel he'd needed saving at all and only later realized that he 
> indeed could have died and that James indeed saved his life. 

wynnleaf
If Snape had gone in knowing his was going to face a werewolf, and
thinking that he was prepared to do so, then he would not have felt
James saved his life at all -- just foiled his plan.  I can't
seriously see your version of Snape both arrogantly thinking he could
kill a werewolf *and* later deciding he was wrong and that James saved
his life.  

Dana
> But in respect to Snape knowing more curses and such doesn't it want 
> to imply that Snape was intelligent enough to put two and two 
> together? Maybe he indeed had a tendency to come to wrong conclusions 
> like was implied in the movie but I doubt it. The OWL exam might not 
> have included more then just the question on how to recognize a 
> werewolf but Snape setting up the essay for the third year students, 
> does imply that more information then just this question was taught 
> at Hogwarts and that Snape himself was taught in the same way as he 
> taught the third years in PoA. 
>
> It was only Hermione who made the link or at least of what we see in 
> canon but Snape thought it would be enough information to reveal 
> Lupin's condition. 

wynnleaf
You're forgetting what else Snape knew about Hermione's knowledge
base. Let's assume (because it's strongly implied in canon), that
Snape hoped some students, or at least Hermione, would figure out that
Lupin was a werewolf.  Did he think that someone would figure it out
using the *same* knowledge base that he had as a student?  No, because
Snape *knew* that at least some of the students had knowledge that he
didn't have as a student.

1.  Snape *knew* that Harry, and most likely Harry's friends, would be
aware that Lupin was taking a special potion.  Snape didn't have any
such hint when he was a kid.  

2.  Snape would know that the students would be acutely aware of
exactly when Lupin was absent from school, because they'd all notice
the exact days he wasn't in class.  As a kid in a different house,
Snape would have been highly unlikely to have been aware of the
specific dates of Lupin's absences.  

3.  And last, Snape had heard about the boggart lesson, so he may have
assumed (correctly) that Lupin, in dealing with the boggart in front
of his class, may have had to reveal a boggart that would hint at his
being a werewolf.  Snape may even have heard enough about the boggart
lesson to *know* what Lupin's boggart looked like.  Someone, after
all, told him about Neville's boggart -- maybe one of the Slytherins.
 Snape as a kid probably hadn't seen Lupin's boggart.  We're given no
indication that practical boggart lessons were commonly taught
especially with different DADA teachers each year, even when Snape was
in school.  

So we can be certain that when Snape gave that lesson to the DADA
class, he *knew* that some of the students, and perhaps all of them,
had knowledge specific to Lupin that he didn't have when he was a student.

Dana
And that is what bugs me because Lupin does say 
> that Snape was interested to know where Lupin went every month and 
> that he was accompanied by the school nurse on one of these monthly 
> disappearances. Lupin specifically implies that Snape already had 
> this information before Sirius tricked him and to me it even implies 
> that Sirius knew Snape wanted to know more about Lupin because Lupin 
> states that Sirius thought it amusing to tell Snape that all he had 
> to do was prod the knot to be able to follow Lupin into the tunnel. 

wynnleaf
Yes, we can be fairly sure that Snape *did* want to know more about
what Lupin was doing.  But Sirius specifically said that Snape was
doing this because he wanted to get them expelled.  Snape knew that
Pomfrey went along, so he would presumably know that at least part of
Lupin's actions at night were school sanctioned.  But in order for
Snape to get Lupin expelled, he had to suspect that Lupin was also
engaged in some activity that was *not* school sanctioned.  

Since the Marauders have been shown in the Worst Memory scene to not
be particularly circumspect when talking about their *monthly*
activities, it's very likely that what alerted Snape wasn't figuring
out that Lupin was a werewolf ahead of time (which we have Lupin's
canon comment that he didn't know until later), but overhearing
Marauder conversations about their monthly excursions (which we
already have canon that they discussed in full hearing of others). 

Dana
> Personally of what I have seen of Snape's character I have totally no 
> problem with the idea of him shifting the blame on to someone else. 
I 
> believe he ran to DD immediately after James pulled him out of the 
> Willow to claim Sirius (and maybe James and Lupin) tried to kill him 
> and maybe it is just speculation but like Harry, Sirius doesn't seem 
> like he would make a good occlumens. Maybe DD did not talk to Sirius 
> which I doubt and James did all the talking but to me it doesn't seem 
> that DD was all that convinced by the claim Snape made, not then and 
> not in PoA, as he replies not with a conformation but with the 
> statement that his memory was a good as it always was. 

wynnleaf
You're implying that Dumbledore "knew" that Snape wasn't tricked by
Sirius at all, but knew all along that Lupin was a werewolf -- yet,
since Snape continues to speak to Dumbledore in POA of Sirius trying
to kill him, Dumbledore must *never* have told Snape that he knew
Sirius didn't really trick Snape.  Why would he not tell Snape this? 
You're saying that Dumbledore knew that Snape was sneaking around
trying to either kill Lupin or whatever and never said *anything* to
him about it??  

The weirdest thing about Snape going into that tunnel *while* knowing
Lupin was a werewolf is that the only reason I can think of for him to
do that would be to try to kill Lupin.  It wouldn't be to find out
what Lupin was doing, because he'd already know.  But if he was trying
to kill Lupin, then why wouldn't Dumbledore have ever talked to Snape
about that?  

Dana
> So my personal speculation is that Sirius dared Snape to face Lupin. 
> That Snape already had made the link and that Sirius tricked him by 
> showing Snape, Lupin was a harmless werewolf and that he (Sirius) 
> could get in and out without being harmed at all. Or maybe Sirius 
> used Peter for that part. If then Sirius played the coward tune with 
> Snape then it was a sure thing Snape would try. And then James comes 
> up finding Sirius out side the willow laughing his head off, of how 
> scared out of his wits Snape will be if he sees Lupin is not that 
> harmless (with Sirius totally ignorant to the actual dangers Snape 
> could face) and then James realizing that Snape could get killed and 
> running after him. 
> 
> That is a scenario that I could believe of what actually happened on 
> that night. 

wynnleaf
One interesting thing is that you're building your theory in part on
Lupin's story, but then you don't believe Lupin's story when he gets
to the parts you don't want to include in your theory, such as his
comment that "from that time on he knew what I was."  It's like your
theory takes the parts of his story that fit the theory and says "this
is true" and takes the parts that don't fit your theory and disregards
them.

Dana
> James saving Snape might have felt to Snape somewhat the same as Lily 
> intervening with the Marauders bullying him, because it doesn't make 
> Snape look better but worse and why he hates James for it so much 

wynnleaf
Once again, Dumbledore didn't say that this was why Snape hated James.
 And if it was a similar feeling as to his feelings about Lily's
coming to his defense in the worst memory scene, why wouldn't we see
Snape acting just as hateful about Lily later as he does about James?

Dana
and 
> DD not expelling the marauders after this events made Snape chose to 
> take matters into his own hands. 

wynnleaf
If Snape had never really been tricked by Sirius at all, he wouldn't
have felt really powerful resentment about whatever did or didn't
happen to punish Sirius.  It's only when we include Snape thinking
that the Marauders were trying to *kill* him that such huge resentment
makes any sense.

As regards "made Snape chose to take matters into his own hands," I'm
not sure what you're referring to.  Snape becoming a DE?  But at the
moment when revenge against a Marauder was finally a possibility,
Snape didn't just let things happen and let LV target and kill the
Potters without warning.  He instead went to Dumbledore.  So while I
could see Snape's resentment over the whole incident being a factor in
a decision to join the Death Eaters, I don't see Snape taking "matters
into his own hands," at least as regards trying to get some sort of
revenge.

But you know the biggest reason why further revelations are unlikely
to show us *Snape's* greater culpability?

Because neither the reader nor Harry needs some sort of confirmation
that "oh my gosh, Snape really does bad things!!"  There's no
character in the series right now that needs to hear that Snape was to
blame for the werewolf prank.  There has to be a *purpose* to these
sorts of revelations.  It's not just JKR thinking this werewolf prank
is an odd little story that it would be nice to fill us in on.  It's
got to serve a purpose.  There's no purpose in giving Harry another
reason to dislike Snape or think he's a bad guy.  The readers and
Harry have already been shown Snape murdering Dumbledore.  I really
don't think JKR needs the werewolf prank to further cement the "Snape
is evil" image.

JKR has already accomplished convincing Harry that Snape is evil.  The
only reason to bring up further revelations about Snape is to explain
why he's *not* evil.  

That is the biggest problem with all the theories that we're going to
find out further evidence that Snape is a Bad Man.

wynnleaf