TBAY: What Harry "knows", (Was: Why we'll get no further revelations ...)

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 169886

> >Carol:
> > And anyone who
> > wants a red flag to alert them to the presence of the unreliable
> > narrator, meaning Harry's perception of anyone or anything, not just
> > of Snape, being wrong, can just watch for the phrase "Harry knew."

Neri

> "Isn't it wonderful, this observation of Carol?" Neri asked Faith.
> "All we have to do is just watch for the phrase `Harry knew', and
> we'll immediately know that he's wrong."

wynnleaf
After which, Neri, you go on with a list of places in canon where it
says "Harry knew" and Harry was correct in his knowledge.  

Now granted, Carol didn't actually come back and confirm or contradict
my comments on this way of looking at what "Harry knew," but since
I've been very interested in this for quite some time, I had posted a
bit more lengthy description of exactly what we're talking about over
this "Harry knew" angle.  Because quite obviously, as I said
previously, this is not meant to include every instance of the
combination of the words "Harry knew."

Here's what I said, which you appear to have either missed or chose to
ignore.  Perhaps you only wanted to address Carol's comment.

Wynnleaf previously:
<By the way, on the "what Harry knows" aspect, I was specifically
talking about narrated comments throughout the series in which Harry
is reflecting on something that is *not* a fact, but he is
feeling "sure" or that he "knows" a particular thing primarily
through some sort of gut feeling. Often it's that he'll "never" do
something. When I said that those portions of the text may be
signals that Harry is in fact being set up to be wrong, I was
specifically referring to those particular kinds of narrative bits --
not just anything in general that Harry feels or knows.>

wynnleaf now
Now, using that as a guide, we can cross out all the examples for
which Harry "knows" something that is already an obvious fact, not
just a gut feeling.

Soooo....

> ********************************************************
> "Quirrell rolled off him, his face blistering too, and then Harry
> knew: Quirrell couldn't touch his bare skin, not without suffering
> terrible pain"
> ********************************************************
> 
wynnleaf
Harry had the factual evidence literally in his face.  This was not a
gut feeling.  He "knew" because it was a fact.  Therefore, it doesn't
count.

> ********************************************************
> The little creature on the bed had large, bat-like ears and bulging
> green eyes the size of tennis balls. Harry knew instantly that this
> was what had been watching him out of the garden hedge that morning.
> ********************************************************

wynnleaf
Once again, Harry knew for a fact that the same eyes he was looking at
were the ones that had looked at him earlier.  Therefore, it doesn't
count.  Two down.

> ********************************************************
> "No one asked your opinion, you filthy little Mudblood," he spat.
> 
> Harry knew at once that Malfoy had said something really bad because
> there was an instant uproar at his words.
> ********************************************************

wynnleaf
The "instant uproar at his words," is what is making Harry know this
for a fact -- no gut feeling here, coming about after, what did I say
before? -- "reflecting on something that is *not* a fact."  Yep, Harry
could hear the displeasure of others and therefore knew this for a
fact.  He "knew" because he had evidence, not a gut feeling.

> ********************************************************
> Ginny had already been in the Chamber of Secrets for hours
.Harry knew
> there was only one thing to do.
> 
> "Wait there," he called to Ron. "Wait with Lockhart. I'll go on."
> ********************************************************

wynnleaf
We could actually argue this one.  Was this really the only thing that
could be done?  Somehow, Fawkes was cognizant of the circumstances to
come help.  Was Dumbledore?  It's hard to say if Harry was truly the
only option, or whether in fact there were other options and Harry's
"saving people" thing simply told him he *had* to do this, sort of
like with the merpeople in GOF.


> ********************************************************
> Harry knew perfectly well that Dudley only put up with Aunt Marge's
> hugs because he was well paid for it,
> ********************************************************

wynnleaf
Another one where Harry actually knows for a fact that Dudley is paid
to do it.  Once again, it doesn't fit the qualifications of reflecting
on something which Harry doesn't know for a fact and having a strong
gut feeling.
> 
> ********************************************************
> Professor McGonagall considered him intently. Harry knew she was
> deeply interested in the Gryffindor team's prospects;
> ********************************************************

wynnleaf
Another fact Harry already is aware of.  Another one that doesn't count.

> 
> ********************************************************
> "Which job did he want, sir? What subject did he want to teach?" 
> Somehow, Harry knew the answer even before Dumbledore gave it. 
> "Defense Against the Dark Arts."
> ********************************************************

wynnleaf
Yet again, I don't think this was a gut feeling Harry arrives at after
 reflecting on something for which he doesn't have facts.  Harry knows
the DADA position is open every year (at the time he didn't know it
began to be open every year *after* this event).  He knows that
Voldemort is seriously interested in Dark Arts.  It's a rather obvious
guess based on facts.  Besides that I didn't read this as some sort of
inner certain knowledge Harry felt, so much as that thing that happens
to everyone now and again when you just can sense what someone is
about to say.


> ********************************************************
> "Antidotes!" said Snape, looking around at them all, his cold black
> eyes glittering unpleasantly. "You should all have prepared your
> recipes now. I want you to brew them carefully, and then, we will be
> selecting someone on whom to test one
"
> 
> Snape's eyes met Harry's, and Harry knew what was coming. Snape was
> going to poison him.
> ********************************************************
> 
wynnleaf
Now this is one I'd count.  Why?  Harry isn't working from any facts.
 He has never seen or heard of Snape poisoning any student.  Snape has
never poisoned him before.  As far as Harry knows, no one has ever
died in Snape's classes.  Harry has no facts to go on except Snape's
comment that "we will be selecting someone on whom to test one..."  In
fact, practically any kid I've ever heard of, after seeing Snape make
over-the-top threats for years, wouldn't even *believe* this threat. 
So Harry "knowing" Snape is going to poison him is almost certainly
incorrect.  Yes, right, Harry -- Snape was going to poison you right
there in class -- nice way to curry favor with Dumbledore and keep his
spying/teacher position!  After all, Snape knows Dumbledore gives 3rd
and 4th chances, even to teachers who poison Dumbledore's favorite
students.  Right.  Sometimes I wonder about Harry.

> ********************************************************
> Cedric was going to get there first. Cedric was sprinting as fast as
> he could toward the cup, and Harry knew he would never catch up,
> Cedric was much taller, had much longer legs --
> 
> Then Harry saw something immense over a hedge to his left, moving
> quickly along a path that intersected with his own; it was moving so
> fast Cedric was about to run into it, and Cedric, his eyes on the cup,
> had not seen it --
> 	
> "Cedric!" Harry bellowed. "On your left!"
> ********************************************************
 
>Neri 
> "So Harry did catch up after all, so to speak, " said Neri. "But do
> you mean that's all? This isn't even a case of unreliable narrator,
> exactly. And there wasn't any mystery involved. Just a simple plot
> turn, of the kind that happens five or ten times in a chapter. 

wynnleaf
Yep, Harry was wrong.  However, Harry was basing his knowledge not on
a gut feeling, but on clear facts that Cedric was ahead, taller,
longer legs, etc.  Harry was not reflecting on some gut feeling
without facts.  He was simply assessing facts.  It turns out he was
still wrong, but I wouldn't count it as an example.

Well, that pretty much takes care of all your examples.    

Remember, it's not just anywhere you see "Harry" and "knew" in
combination.  We're talking about Harry having some gut feeling about
something for which he does not have factual evidence.  Or some gut
feeling about what he thinks he'll do in the future.

Harry knew he'd never eavesdrop again -- obviously not based on facts,
but his own hopes.

Harry knew he wouldn't ever lure Sirius out of Grimmauld Place -- not
based on facts, but a gut feeling and what Harry was promising himself.

Harry knew he'd never forgive Snape.  Based purely on his own current
feelings.  He has no facts about what he may truly feel or think in
the future.

Harry knew Fawkes was gone for good.  He clearly has no facts to
support this.  It's just a gut feeling.  (I keep using that phrase,
don't I?)

The reason I questioned my own inclusion of Harry's assessment of
Snape's memories from the occlumency lessons is specifically because
of what Harry thought he "knew."  On the one hand, he was reflecting
back on things he'd seen for which he really didn't have any clear
facts, yet on the other, there was at least strong evidence that
indeed the couple where the man was shouting at the woman was Snape's
parents, because of the hook nose.  And of course, these *were*
Snape's memories, as Harry knew for a *fact.*  No gut feeling about
that part.

wynnleaf, who wonders if Carol could further describe what *she* means
by this sort of phrasing of Harry "knowing" or being "sure" of
something or that something will "never" happen.