replies to many, many, many posts

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 170146

zgirnius:
> The distinction you are making, as I see it, is that Snape spied on 
> Dumbledore and Voldemort, but not any of their followers? I find 
> this not credible. I believe Dumbledore would be interested in the 
> activities of other Death Eaters, and Snape would report on them. 
> Even if Snape only reported on Voldemort, this could still 
> constitute ratting on friends, because a report on Voldemort might 
> consist of "The Dark Lord ordered Evan Rosier to kill Person X in 
> Place Y at time Z," which would be more than enough to ensure the 
> arrest of Rosier, even though it is a report on Voldemort.

Dana:
That is not what I stated I stated that is is never suggested in 
canon that Snape did anything other then spy on DD and later spy on 
LV. We see that he is literarly only spying on DD (listening at 
keyholes and such) but it is never claimed by anyone that he gave 
valuable information that led to the capture of DEs in the first war. 
It is only Snape himself that claims that his information on the 
Order has led to the capture and murder of Emmeline Vance ect. No, DE 
is accussing him of any betrayal against any of them. We actually see 
the contrary because both Lucius and Avery could claim they were 
under the imperious curse and they both walked free. Bella and her 
lot also walked free initially untill they were caught for torturing 
the Longbottoms. 

It is just assuming that Snape gave any of this information to DD. I 
have even see people claim that it was Snape that told DD that there 
was a spy in the Order while it is never suggested that DD knew this 
information as fact but just that he suspected there being one 
because it seemed LV had information on the Potters movements. 

I make my claim on the bases on what I do see in canon and that is 
that Snape knew Lucius, Avery and Bella and never sold them over to 
the side of good because he saw the errors of his ways. And they 
possed a potential threat to the safety of people. Lucius even possed 
a threat on two occassions without LV being there. One with the diary 
in CoS and the second with his muggle torture in GoF. But Snape's 
defection seemed to only have been partially as he still kept his 
ties with Lucius all those years, even making his son Snape's 
favourite students. That is canon and the rest is just assumption 
that Snape must have done more to proof that he was now truly on the 
side of good. 

zgirnius:
> However, the bigger problem I have with this whole idea - what 
> information about *Voldemort* has Snape given Dumbledore? See the 
> problem? There is none in canon. Dumbledore even manages not to say 
> directly that Snape told him how Voldemort had interpreted the 
> prophecy (though personally I don't see how Snape could tell 
> his 'tale of remorse' without mentioning this fact). All we know is 
> that Dumbledore is satisfied that Snape was a spy for the good 
> guys. We have no examples of the intelligence he brought on which 
> to hang an elaborate distinction like idea that Snape only reported 
> on Voldemort, and never on other Death Eaters.

Dana:
Precisely of course you did not mention this to help me proof my 
point but it is exactly the problem I have with Snape being DDM. DD 
in his after the fact speech could have used this to make Harry see 
what Snape has done for the Order but he actually never does but he 
does mention what information Snape got directly from Harry himself. 
The only thing DD ever mentions is that Snape was truly remorseful 
about how LV interpreted the prophecy, information DD himself already 
knew because he heard the prophecy himself and knew it would involve 
only those people who had a son at the end of July. 

James and Lily going into hiding actually did not have to had 
anything to do with information DD got from Snape because DD already 
knew Snape brought the prophecy to LV and he knew LV already good 
enough to foresee that he would probably act on it and therefore DD 
himself might have warned the Potters out of precaution and DE 
activity turning up every where the Potters turned would already have 
been suggestion enough that LV was going to act upon it. It was only 
suggested by Fudge that one of DD's useful spies had warned him that 
LV was going to target the Potters and it was implied that DD 
suggested the Fidelius Charm as a result of that warning and we see 
that it was only in place just one week when LV killed them. 

I'm not suggesting that Snape went to DD just one week before the 
Potters died because as we see it was at least during the summer 
before terms started as Snape was working as a teacher for 14 years 
in OotP but everything else of what Snape did for the Order is 
speculation and just assumption that it must have been more because 
it seems so unlikely that there wouldn't be any more. Unfortunately 
canon does not provide anything more. There is only 2 suggestions in 
canon that Snape spied on DD a very long time. 1) Him bringing the 
prophecy which was actually made before Harry was born 2) Snape's own 
claim in HBP that he could give LV 16 years worth of information on 
DD. That is it and the latter suggests that Snape waited at least 9 
months before he got remorseful about bringing the prophecy to LV and 
thus only after it became know which people the prophecy could have 
included, which of course still supports the notion of the lifedebt. 

JHMO

Dana