Werewolves and RL equivalents

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 170281

> > >>Alla:
> > Or give them the potion.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Well, no, not according to general mythology.  There is no potion 
> there (and that's what I was talking about above).  I think in the 
> general mythology there is no cure or preventative.  The werewolf 
is 
> pretty much doomed.

Alla:

I know. I am not talking about general mythology, only about JKR 
werewolves and it seems to me that the presence of potion is a major 
difference from general mythology, which of course there are 
similarities as well.

> > >>Alla:
> > Except with the potion.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> True.  But JKR made the potion awfully finicky.  It's hard to make 
> (and possibly expensive? I might be slipping into fanon there) and 
> you have to take it consecutively for a certain amount of time 
> (though I'm not sure the time's been specified).  And I believe 
the 
> potion loses potency if not treated just so.  And if you miss one 
> dose you're back to being a mindless, hunger driven, incredibly 
> dangerous monster.  
<SNIP>

Alla:

Yes, tricky, not sure about expensive, but hard to make indeed. That 
all goes to what I mentioned before - I certainly believe JKR made 
it hard for her werewolves to get by, especially those who want to 
be society members. The difference is I believe that JKR IS putting 
the burden on society eventually, not on werewolves. In a sense that 
of course they have to want to get medication and be careful on full 
moon, but society will have to help them. Hopefully.


> Betsy Hp:
> Right, Fenrir has no qualms about his particular tastes.  He's the 
> pedophile that revels in it, brags about it, teaches his views to 
> others.  Whereas Lupin is the guy who's disgusted with himself 
when 
> he wakes up out of his "mindless lust" phase. Like I said, JKR 
does 
> introduce a sliding scale.  Lupin isn't into biting when the 
monster 
> isn't in control.  Plus there's the sympathy factor in the fact 
that 
> Lupin himself was a victim of Fenrir's monsterous side. 
> 
> But they're both equally monsterous when the moon is full.  Once 
> they've turned it doesn't matter if it's Fenrir or Lupin coming 
> through your door.  Either one is out for your blood.

Alla:

Well, firstly, I do not think it is shown at all that Lupin has 
**any** lust towards children as werewolf. Just dangerous, sure, 
desire to eat children, I don't think so IMO.

And I think same goes with general comparison - the thing is, I 
don't think Lupin **will** walk through your door in the first place.

He fails to take a potion, but he controls himself all year before 
that.


 
> Betsy Hp:
> It is, I agree.  And I suspect it's a sort of modernizing of the 
> myth.  <SNIP> But, just like Lupin's potion, it's dependent 
> on the person actually *taking* the stuff.

Alla:

Sure, of course.


Betsy Hp: 
> But if the werewolf doesn't want to take his potion (Fenrir) or 
> something comes up and the werewolf forgets to take it (Lupin) 
you've 
> still got that monster on the loose.  IOWs the potion (and the 
> medication) cage the beast, but the beast is still there.  And 
it's a 
> beast that attacks outwardly.  It seeks out victims, it doesn't 
> victimize its host.  Which is not common with RL illness, I think.

Alla:

I think it is hinted by Lupin's grey hair and shubby appearance that 
it victimises his host as well, if not to the same degree and 
examples were given of people with RL who do seek out their victims.

It is not common of course, it is maybe what one person of the many 
thousands who will do in RL, but I see very little difference 
between that and what Fenrir does.

Let me say it again, of course there is a difference between 
werewolves and folks with RL illnesses like AIDS in a sense that 
werewolf on full moon is dangerous unless medicated,  it is a major, 
major difference. But I very strongly believe and of course only 
book 7 will show which one of us is right that JKR means for this 
difference to **make no difference** so to speak. To make no 
difference in a sense of how society **has to** treat both folks 
with RL diseases and fictional disease of werewolvism, that makes 
you want to bite or eat the people once a month.

I think the only factor will be if the person wants to get better 
and fit in the society or be a monster and if werewolf wants to work 
and live as everybody else, WW will start giving them help. IMO of 
course. 

> > >>Alla:
> > Well, sure, without medication and **once a month* and not 
always 
> > seriously eat you, but he is dangerous, once a month and without 
> > medication. I would withold word monster for now.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Why?  I mean, I think this is getting nit-picky (I fully 
acknowledge 
> that <g>) but how is a werewolf, when it *is* a mindless, non-
> medicated werewolf, not a monster?


Alla:

Yeah, it does, but that is because even when werewolf non medicated, 
I see hints of something in JKR world, like with Lupin, Sirius 
manages to restrain him even when he is not medicated.

Does Lupin react on animal level as he reminiscents about school? 
Maybe. But maybe not, maybe some part of him as human recognises a 
friend and reacts to him even if not to anybody else and those 
possibilities stop me from calling Lupin a monster, I guess. I think 
it maybe another difference in Potterverse which we are not fully 
aware of yet.

 
> Betsy Hp:
> The massive risk that the medication *isn't* taken.  <SNIP> The 
risk that the cage isn't strong enough.  The risk that the beast, 
> the mindless, hunger driven beast, is out.


Alla:

Yeah, there is that, but I am all for werewolf taking the medication 
all the time.


> > >>Alla:
> > To me it is a fight against evil to take a stand against 
ideology   
> > of pureblood supremacists, started by Salasar Slytherin, 
NOT       
> > prejudice against them.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I think we fundamentally agree here.  I'm not for the pureblood 
> ideology.  I think I can see where it's coming from, what started 
it, 
> etc., but that doesn't mean I agree with it or think it doesn't 
need 
> to be shot down. (And I do tend to cut Salazar a break, but that's 
> because the history strikes me as a tad too pat.  I don't know 
that 
> canon will end up backing me, but he's too convenient a scapegoat 
for 
> me to accept too easily.)
<SNIP>


Alla:

Hmmmm, I would like to make a bet that the guy whom JKR called the  
founder of *pureblood supremacy*, was just that <g> and Voldemort 
did not corrupt the Slytherin House but was the product of this 
ideology h

> Betsy Hp:
> The reason I disagree with the above is that fearing werewolves is 
> *not* prejudice.  Not in JKR's world.  A werewolf can and will eat 
> you or infect you.  That is how it is.  If you're lucky, said 
> werewolf will be medicated, if not you (*you* not the werewolf) 
are 
> screwed.  

Alla:

Yes, if werewolves were dangerous **every day**, I would agree with 
you. Since they are only dangerous once a month, without medication, 
oh wait, also without friends turning into animagi, I would still 
say it is prejudice to be afraid of **all werewolves all the time**.

If you are telling me that it is rational to stay away from werewolf 
running around without medication on full moon, sure, makes sense.

The question is of course does JKR think that this is what matters? 
Or what matters is how society treats werewolves in general?

Monstrocity Umbridge advocates not giving them any jobs and that is 
what happening, they cannot provide for themselves, no?

Not just during full moon, every day of the year. Nope, makes no 
sense to me, sorry.


Betsy Hp:
> It's not prejudice to say werewolves are monsters.  They are, as 
per 
> JKR's canon.  She didn't have to do it that way.  JKR could easily 
> have had Lupin turn into a wolf that mimics his own personality.  
> *Then* I'd buy the idea that those parents expressing shock and 
> horror that this sweet and mild-mannered werewolf being loose on 
> school grounds were being prejudiced.  Instead, JKR shows that 
their 
> fears are correct.  A non-medicated werewolf (which Lupin was) can 
> kill; their children *were* at risk.  <SNIP>

Alla:

Um, they are dangerous once a month only. Once a month. And why 
would JKR make Lupin turn into sweet wolf? That is what makes it 
harder for people around him, does it not?

He IS just as sick as any other werewolf and he can eat or kill you 
when on full moon.

Except he really, really really does not **want to** eat or kill you 
when there is not a full moon ( That is of course unless you 
subcribe to Evil Lupin, which I do not).

Oh, and despite him really really not wanting to eat or kill you, he 
forgot to take his medication. Yep, he did. Here WW, try to show 
compassion and tolerance to person like that, here is the challenge 
to you.

> lizzyben:
> 
> Yes, I agree, in the Wizarding World, it's *rational* to be afraid 
of
> werewolves. They are dangerous, & do kill people. It might even be
> rational to discriminate against them. That's why I don't 
understand
> JKR's statement that werewolves are a metaphor for a disability.
> Wouldn't this lead to the conclusion that people w/disabilities
> *should* be discriminated against? Is she saying that people w/a
> disease *are* a threat to the community? Because I don't believe 
that,
> and I bet JKR doesn't believe that, but that seems to be the
> underlying message of the metaphor as she's created it. So what,
> exactly, was JKR doing there? It's a paradox.
>

Alla:

I have a suspicion that JKR disagrees with the first part of your 
premise that it is rational to discriminate against werewolves, that 
is why I see no paradox.

Yes, she calls it the metaphor for people reactions towards illness 
and disability.

I also want to venture a really wild guess here - I do not think 
that werewolves will be cured, although Gonorus charm gives me some 
hope, why make it easy on WW, BUT if they will be, I think it would 
something really obvious  to show total ignorance WW treated them 
for ages instead of finding that cure earlier.

 
JMO,

Alla