Werewolves and RL equivalents (was:Re: Snape - a werewolf bigot?...)

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 170331

> zgirnius: 
> I don't understand your reading of this scene. Why do you think 
> Snape's eyes narrow? I took it as a surprised reaction to Harry's 
> presence. If I am right, he was expecting to be bringing the 
potion 
> to Lupin at a time when Lupin is alone. 
> 

Lanval:
Of course he was surprised to see Harry. I never read it as 
something Snape had planned. But when he found him there, why not 
make things a little uncomfortable for Lupin? 


> > Lanval:
> > Why, WHY, couldn't Snape just set down the potion, as Lupin 
> politely 
> > asked? Why press it even further, after Lupin states clearly, 
and 
> > without any annoyance, impatience, etc, that he *will* drink it 
> > directly? 
> 
> zgirnius:
> Nerves on Snape's part are another possible explanation. He may 
> prefer to SEE Lupin drink the stuff. He brings it in and hopes 
Lupin 
> will drink it, but Lupin instead asks him to put it down on the 
desk. 
> Hence the reminder that it needs to be drunk directly.
> 


Lanval:
Which Lupin would know by now. 

Snape's nerves? Possible; I doubt it very much though. In the Shack, 
I didn't notice Snape being overly worried about the forgotten 
potion, even though it IS night, it IS full moon, and he knows Lupin 
forgot to take the potion. But what does Snape do, urge Lupin to 
stay put in the shack while he takes Sirius and the kids up to the 
castle? Bring the potion along? No. He just gloats at having caught 
him helping Black. So much for Sevvie's nerves.



> zgirnius:
> A smoking potion that Harry suspected of being a poison is already 
> going to lead to questions. I don't find anything particularly 
> suggestive in the rest of the dialogue. Lupin may need more of the 
> potion...what is more suspicious about that than the simple 
presence 
> pf the smoking potion and Lupin's need to take it?
> 

Lanval:

He could have, for example, told Lupin that he needed to see him in 
his office, the moment he noticed Harry. That way all Harry would 
have seen is Snape, Potions Master, carrying around a steaming 
potion. You're right, it may still have aroused Harry's interest, 
but it seems to me that Snape does draw the matter out -- and means 
to.

He could have said he brought the medicine for Lupin's sickly 
Grindylow? :) 

My point is that, had Snape wanted to hide the eyebrow-raising fact 
from Harry that the potion was for Lupin, and that there clearly was 
something urgent about it, he could have done so. Come on, this is 
Severus Snape, double-triple-whatever agent. Give him some credit. :)

Keeping Lupin's dark secret safe was in Lupin's and DD's interest, 
not in Snape's.

And I'm not trying to put some evil Snape Scheme into this scene, 
really, or insisting my reading of it is the only one possible; it 
was merely a reaction to the former poster's statement about Lupin 
acting all passive-aggressive and doing a power play, and Snape 
being the innocent one with the pure motive. IMO it can be 
interpreted in many ways, and this is one of them..




> zgirnius:
> We se the incident just cited by you upthread, and another, on a 
full 
> moon night, when he does not take the potion at all, and seems to 
> forget that he even needs to, even after he is reminded of it.


Lanval:
But that was under different circumstances. My beef was with Lupin 
having a bad attitude all year about taking his meds. IMP, that's 
not at all what caused him to forget the potion the night of the 
Shack.


> zgirnius:
> The afternoon visit was during a Hogsmeade visit, so over a 
weekend. 
> The SS events occur on a weekday during final exams. Snape and/or 
> Lupin may be busy in the afternoon on a weekday, administering a 
> test, or what have you. 

Lanval:
True.
> 

> Further, according to Snape, the reason he brought a goblet to 
> Lupin's office in the first place that evening was that *Lupin* 
> forgot to take it earlier. It could also be that this was the 
reason 
> Snape brought the potion on Halloween, by the way, which would 
also 
> explain Snape's feeling that he does need to remind Lupin of this 
> stuff, despite any past experiences they may have had.
> 
> To me it makes much more sense that it isd Lupin's responsibility 
to 
> find Snape and get his potion, than that Snape is supposed to 
always 
> bring it to him. It is, after all, Lupin who is ill.


Lanval:
But since we don't *know* what the arrangement was, I'll just have 
to go with what I deduce from the earlier scene -- namely that Snape 
had agreed to bring it when it was   done. Lupin shows no surprise 
at seeing Snape, and Snape says nothing about having waited for 
Lupin in vain. 



> zgirnius:
> Huh? Snape's going in himself, based on what he knew at the moment 
he 
> entered the tunnel, was imperative. Lupin was in there with at 
least 
> Harry (the cloak Snape found at the Willow would have indicated 
that 
> to Snape). Once in there, he had no say, since he was knocked out 
by 
> the Trio.
> 

Lanval:
Sorry, I expressed myself badly. What I meant is when Snape 
says "I'll drag the werewolf". Of course this never comes to pass. 
But had things gone according to Snape's plan he would 
have 'dragged' Lupin to the castle, either because he forgot in his 
triumph about this tiny matter of the transformation which is bound 
to happen, or because he thinks he can deal with him.
 



> zgirnius:
> I don't doubt that he understands the need to take the potion - 
his 
> discussion of it with Harry in HBP suggests as much. But I do 
think 
> he has procrastinated with it, likely on both occasions that we 
are 
> shown, and this was a factor in the events at the end of PoA.
> 

Lanval:

Well, that's your reading and it's perfectly valid; mine is 
different. I see no evidence for procrastination in the first scene, 
and there's too much conflicting info for the second scene. For me 
at least. 


> 
> zgirnius:
> This is not a hypothetical; in one instance, we know what he would 
do 
> under those circumstances. The night of the Shack incident, he did 
> NOT take the potion. He was later reminded of the fact that he did 
> not take the potion (Snape mentions it), and he still LEFT the 
Shack.

Lanval:
Yes. So did Sirius, so would Snape have done. Forgetfulness, due to 
extreme circumstances, for all of them, then? Though I do agree that 
Lupin, as the one posing the danger, and being an adult, bears more 
responsibility. However, had Snape dragged him, or forced him at 
wandpoint...

I wonder, did Peter remember?