Snape vs Lupin (Was: Werewolves and RL equivalents (was:Re: Snape -

[dungrollin]

No: HPFGUIDX 170339

> Carol responds:
> I think there's more going on here than power plays and schoolboy
> grudges. Lupin is hiding something, a Snape thinks he's trying to 
help Sirius Black get into the school to kill Harry. He also knows 
(without being *afraid* of him now that he's an adult and a DADA 
> expert) that Lupin is very dangerous in and of himself. 

Dung:
Yes, but that's not why he *hates* Lupin. He tells DD that Lupin 
can't be trusted even before the start of term, before Lupin even 
arrives at the castle. The question (I thought) we were discussing 
was whether Snape hates Lupin because he's anti-werewolf, or whether 
it's something more personal to do with Lupin, and I believe that, 
given how he utterly ignores Fenrir, the thing with Lupin is *all* 
personal.

Carol:
I think that Snape, who clearly deosn't trust Lupin, wouldn't put it 
past Lupin to refuse (or "forget") to drink his potion. Snape is also 
(IMO) very uncomfortable
> seeing the man he suspects (increasingly thoroughout the year, but
> even to some degree at this early point) of being the "murderer"
> Black's accomplice and friend becoming close to Harry. Snape, as
> usual, is protecting Harry, trying to keep him out of Hogsmeade and
> away from Black, and here's Lupin with Harry in his office. (Could 
he be telling Harry how to get past the Dementors, a Black did to 
escape from Azkaban)? 

Dung:
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. 

Carol
> In any case, as I've already pointed out in post #169699 
> "<snip> [T]he question on the DADA exam is significantly different
> from the essay that Snape assigned. One is simply listing the five
> traits that differentiate a werewolf from a true wolf--
characteristics that Severus had not yet had a chance to experience 
in person. 
<snip>
> "two rolls of parchment on the subject [of how to recognize and 
kill a werewolf]" (PoA am. ed. 173), a completely different subject 
as it would involve recognizing the werewolf in human as well as 
> werewolf form."

Dung
Yeah, you're right, I'd forgotten the exact wording.

Carol
> IMO, the whole episode is not child's play to Snape, nor is it about
> revenge for a schoolboy "prank," or even the embarrassment of the
> Boggart incident. 

Dung:
I didn't mean that he considered it a *game*, no no, not at all! Nor 
do I think that he was seeking revenge for the prank. It's not 
consciously about revenge in Snape's mind, it's deadly serious, he 
*does* *not* *trust* Lupin *one* inch. He doesn't trust him not to 
help his old friend Black, he doesn't trust him to take his potion, 
he doesn't trust him to tell the truth. And lets face it, on all 
three counts, Snape's right, just for the wrong reasons. Lupin's a 
traitor through weakness rather than the malice Snape attributes to 
him.

Carol:
In DDM!Snape's view, Lupin is a very dangerous man,

Dung
Yes, I agree. I never suggested otherwise. But it's only partly 
because he's a werewolf that Snape thinks Lupin's dangerous, it's 
only because he thinks that Lupin the man is not worthy of DD's trust 
that he worries about Lupin the werewolf. He doesn't think Lupin 
handled his condition responsibly when he was a kid, and he doesn't 
believe that Lupin has changed (which he hasn't, and Lupin admits so 
himself). If he's so terrified of werewolves running amok in the 
school why does he not bat an eyelid at Fenrir's presence on the 
tower? Because he knows he's in control of Fenrir. But Snape has 
*never* had any control over Lupin or any of the marauders, and he's 
a control freak, so it freaks him out.

Carol:
> tricking Dumbledore into believing that he's "a tame werewolf" when 
in fact he could, through carelessness or malice, easily kill any 
student he encounters on a full-moon night or turn them into a 
werewolf. The Wolfsbane Potion is the only precaution being taken, 
and Snape wants to ensure that Lupin does so. Moreover, this 
particular werewolf appears to be the ally and accomplice of Sirius 
Black, the (supposed) DE spy who (ostensibly) betrayed the Potters 
and murdered twelve Muggles and the "loyal" Peter Pettigrew (Snape's 
> view of the situation at that time). 

Dung
See, I'd put it the other way around. Snape has convinced himself 
that Lupin is in league with Black, (possibly that he always had 
been, and was in on the sk betrayal of the Potters, too), and that if 
Lupin's attempts to get Black into the castle to kill Harry continue 
to fail, he can always try to lure Harry out of school and into 
Hogsmeade where he'll be easy to catch. I'd stick the "oh, and if he 
forgot to take his potion he could run amok around the school and 
infect someone" as the afterthought, rather than the believing him to 
be in league with Black as the afterthought. 

It's just a difference in emphasis, I suppose. Anyway, Snape can't 
prove Lupin's in league with Black, and DD won't listen. But his 
suspicions are driven by his poisonous hatred for Lupin, and the 
fierce joy with which he would behold Lupin locked away together with 
Black in Azkaban. The two would-be murderers from his youth, finally 
where they belong, rather than just another werewolf to be locked up 
or put down.

> Carol, who think Snape's behavior throughout PoA is not about the
> Prank, or at least not primarily; it's about the students' safety, 
and particularly Harry's

Dung:
Ah, there I think you're wrong. I think it's all about *Lupin*, and 
for Snape, Lupin *is* the prank. And yes, he hates Lupin because he 
thought he was in on the joke, but he also hates Lupin for a whole 
load of other reasons, and by the end of PoA he has a handful *more* 
reasons to add to his collection, and which further deepen his 
already profound loathing. (I hope that in DH we find out why Snape 
thought Lupin was in on the prank.)

The students' safety, and Harry's in particular are the levers Snape 
tries to use on DD (to no avail, DD *insists* on trusting Lupin), and 
the failures of responsibility on Lupin's part that Snape believes 
ought to get DD's attention.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that Snape doesn't take his 
responsibilities seriously, because I think he *does*. I don't think 
he'd ever deliberately allow harm to come to any of the students, 
because it's his job as a teacher to protect them, and he's good at 
it, and he likes the idea that he might be praised for doing his job 
well. 

I just don't think that it's fear for the students and Harry's safety 
at the hands of werewolf!Lupin that makes him determined to get Lupin 
out of Hogwarts by the end of the year. I think it's a big mixture of 
the prank, the Marauders, and a fair amount of jealousy and 
impatience with regard to Dumbledore's trust that with Black on the 
loose Lupin will behave responsibly like he never did before. Snape 
is certain tha DD's trust in Lupin *the man* is misplaced, and it 
makes him *livid*. 

Dungrollin
Wondering if it ever occurred to Lupin that with anti-Dementor 
lessons Harry might be able to sneak into Hogsmeade, but still gave 
the lessons anyway.