[HPforGrownups] Re: Elves and freedom

[Kemper]

No: HPFGUIDX 170346

> > Sherry:
> > In the days of slavery here in the US, slave owners often said
> > something I've heard characters in the books say several
> > times. "They're happy this way."
> > <snip>
> > ... rhetoric that has been used for generations all over the
> > world to justify slavery.

> jadon:
> A difference is that the house-elves themselves use this 'rhetoric,'
> isn't it?
>
> GoF:
> "House-elves is not supposed to have fun, Harry Potter," said Winky
> firmly.
>
> OotP:"Winky is still drinking lots, sir, ... She still does not care for clothes, Harry Potter. Nor do the other house elves. None of them will clean Gryffindor Tower any more, not with the hats and socks hidden everywhere, they finds them insulting, sir."
>
> Even Kreacher, who hates his master, doesn't want to be _free_:
> ... snip Kreacher quote from canon ...
>
> Both Kreacher and Dobby are a bit weird, but Winky is supposed to be our voice of house-elf normality, isn't she?

Kemper now:
The norm isn't Winky's statement of House Elves not suppose to have
fun.  Rather, it's Dobby's statement that none of them want clothes
which suggests none of them want freedom.

Winky's statement and actions remind me of somebody's who's in an
abusive, codependent relationship.  She's been beaten down to believe
she's not supposed to have fun.  And, I imagine, since she believes
herself to be a 'normal' House Elf, she makes a blanket statement that
/all/ House Elves aren't suppose to have fun.

You can take a codependent out of a relationship, but you can't take
the relationship out of the codependent.

It seems to me that the Hogwart's House Elves are the ones that are 'normal'.
They want to serve Harry and Ron.  Winky refuses to serve, Kreacher
resents to serve, Dobby gets paid to serve.
The Hogwart House Elves are treated without abuse (at least, I
imagine, since DD's Headmaster tenure.)  Winky and Dobby were treated
with abuse and probably Kreacher.


> Jadon:
>
> Forcing freedom onto modern house-elves ... completely fail[s] to take into account the values of the elves, pressing onto them the values of wizards instead - which, if it was wizards who enslaved house-elves in the first place, aren't exactly to be trusted as consistent.

Kemper now:
The House Elf value system, at its core, seems to be a combination of
'to serve' and 'to please'.  Freedom seems to represent for House
Elves the fear of being unable to live within their value system.


> Jadon:
> I _do_ think that house-elves could be perfectly happy unenslaved,
> but it could take a lot of upset getting to that position. The
> current attempts at helping them are misdirected - take Hermione's
> list (GoF):
> ... snip hermione's quote from canon...

Kemper now:
I agree, Hermione attempts are a bit off and humancentric (she doesn't
talk to the elves first).  However, I think Dumbledore would be proud
of her as she does what is right and not what is easy.
To make Balzac's quote my own:
It is easy to sit up and take notice.  What is right is to stand up
and take action.

Instead of poopooing Hermione (and I'm not saying you are, Jadon),
what should she have done besides following the status quo and, as
others suggest, continuing the practice of species enslavement but
treating slaves kinder?

I think an example of exemplary kindness to one's slave is not the
same as an exemplary example of a human.

Kemper