Werewolves and RL equivalents (was:Re: Snape - a werewolf bigot?...)

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 170358

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Dungrollin wrote:
> <snip>
> > See, I see that as revenge for the Neville Boggart stunt in 
chapter
> 7. They're just falling straight back into their old schooldays
> pattern, Snape and Lupin, but they're adults and teachers now, so 
the
> puerile nature of their ridiculous battles is all hidden under this
> layer of repression. Lupin carries it off a lot more calmly than
> Snape, though he pretends that he's risen above it in the shrieking
> shack whereas he's really just as bad as Snape. Snape, on the other
> hand, spends much of PoA furious, which is how I like him.
> 

Lanval:
:) He does pull of the spittle-flying rage well, doesn't he? 

I agree that the power play cuts both ways, but in the instance of 
the potion-delivery, I find it more in character for Snape to be the 
initiator.

I really think that had Snape not been so hostile before 
Lupin was even hired, Lupin would have let the past be the past. He 
seems to have more important matters on his mind than dwelling on a 
old schoolboy grudge.
Just IMO, of course. I freely confess to my Lupin bias, just as 
others who have argued this question clearly seem to have a Snape 
bias. Some believe that nothing Lupin does is ever sincere. *g*

> Dungrollin:
> > I have to wonder whether Snape really thought any of the students
> would guess that Lupin was a werewolf. After all, he learned 
exactly
> the same stuff, and wrote exactly the same essay question for his 
> O.W.L while he was at school with Lupin for five years, and *he* 
> never guessed (score one Hermione). Nobody guessed except the 
> marauders because they slept in the same dormitory. I think Snape 
set
> that essay just to make Lupin uncomfortable, because as soon as 
Lupin
> found out he told them that they didn't have to do it. If Snape 
had 
> really wanted to screw Lupin, he'd have set the homework to have 
been
> handed in (to him rather than Lupin, as he in fact did) *before* 
> their next lesson with Lupin, so that he wouldn't have the chance 
to 
> find out about it until it was too late and the whole class had 
had to
> do it. Snape's a scheming bastard, he'd have checked when their 
next
> lesson was. As it was, Hermione was the only one who had already 
> finished it. <snip>
> 

Lanval: 
Keeping in mind Snape's low opinion of most of the students' mental 
capacity, he probably knew it would be a miracle if any of them made 
the connection. Though perhaps he thought that one or two of them 
mentioned it casually to their parents? Draco perhaps, writing to 
dead Dad? 

But making Lupin uncomfortable, yes, is guaranteed. Score for Snape, 
just like in the scene with the potion, IMO. 



> Carol responds:
> I think there's more going on here than power plays and schoolboy
> grudges. Lupin is hiding something, a Snape thinks he's trying to 
help
> Sirius Black get into the school to kill Harry. He also knows 
(without
> being *afraid* of him now that he's an adult and a DADA expert) 
that
> Lupin is very dangerous in and of himself. I think that Snape, who
> clearly deosn't trust Lupin, wouldn't put it past Lupin to refuse 
(or
> "forget") to drink his potion. 


Lanval:

But *why*? It would be close to suicide for Lupin! Why would Snape 
think that Lupin had plans to feast on schoolchildren? 


>Carol: 
> As for the essay, although he seems to be bound by some sort of
> promise to Dumbledore not to reveal Lupin's secret (it's Lupin 
himself
> who reveals it by transforming later in the story), and an 
obligation
> to make the potion and make it perfectly (and, IMO, a self-imposed
> obligation to see that it's drunk), he also wants to be sure that 
the
> students can protect themselves should Lupin actually transform. 

Lanval:
Not trying to be funny here. But the assigned essay topic is "How to 
recognize and kill werewolves". So, assuming Snape's deeply worried 
about his students, and his sincere intent is to help and protect 
these Third Year dunderheads, believing they can learn how to 
overcome and KILL a werewolf from *books*...?? what does that make 
of his claim that Sirius tried to murder him, Severus Snape -- that 
Severus Snape, Fifth Year (meaning werewolves and the defense 
against them had to be known to him, seeing as it's part of the 
Third Year curriculum), more gifted and knowledgeable in the ways of 
the Dark Arts than most teachers, had been in danger of losing his 
life? 

Carol:

> "<snip> [T]he question on the DADA exam is significantly different
> from the essay that Snape assigned. One is simply listing the five
> traits that differentiate a werewolf from a true wolf--
characteristics
> that Severus had not yet had a chance to experience in person. 
There
> was no reason for him to associate a tufted tail or a differently
> shaped snout (OoP am. ed. 643) with Remus Lupin, whom he had seen
> going to the Shrieking Shack accompanied by Madam Pomfrey. We don't
> know when he saw that happen <snip> or how often it happened. It 
may
> have only happened once. Nor would Severus, bright though he
> undoubtedly is, would have necessarily associated a full-moon night
> with Remus's removal to the tunnel behind the Whomping Willow, 
which
> he wouldn't have known led to the Shrieking Shack.

Lanval:
No, but it's not impossible either that he DID notice and associate. 
He seems to have been spying on them quite a bit. Lupin mentions 
that Snape was interested in where he went "every month". Lupin 
further states that "one evening" Snape saw him going to the Willow 
with Madame Pomfrey; that does by no means exclude the IMO very 
likely possibility that Snape observed Lupin and Madame Pomfrey on 
several later occasions. As I've said before, give Snape some 
credit; he's a very smart and observant guy! :)

And the OWL question? Just because this one specific question asked 
about five differing traits of werewolves does not mean that this is 
*all* the information students learned about werewolves throughout 
this year, or previous ones. We can't IMO conclude from the content 
of the question that Snape had *only* that much knowledge, and was 
thus unable to suspect Lupin of being a werewolf.

Carol:
 <snip> Nor would
> Severus suspect even the open-minded Dumbledore of allowing a 
werewolf
> into the school, risking death and worse than death for any student
> encountering him on a full-moon night. Seeing Remus being led away 
on
> a full-moon night would not lead inevitably to such a conclusion. 
far
> from it, IMO.
> 

Lanval:
Why would he not suspect it? He doesn't exactly strike me as someone 
having difficulty assuming the worst of everyone, if you know what I 
mean.

And if he believed DD responsible enough to be concerned for the 
safety of the students, it then follows that Lupin's Nights Out had 
to have a fairly harmless reason. Didn't he realize that DD had to 
be behind this school-sanctioned scheme? Why not just give it a 
rest, for God's sake? Why persist in finding out? Isn't Sev 
considered to be a bit of a stickler for rules (at least when it 
comes to otheres not following them...)


Carol:
(She
> also saw him looking ill and shabby, sleeping in the Hogwarts 
Express
> and knew [from Harry] about the potion Snape was preparing for 
him.)

Lanval:
Snape the teenager would have noticed Lupin the teenager looking 
tired and ill once a month, too. For many years.

Carol:

> That information would come into her mind as she researched and 
wrote
> Snape's essay, which, far from requesting a list of characteristics
> that distinguish a werewolf from a true wolf, requires the student 
to
> "two rolls of parchment on the subject [of how to recognize and 
kill a
> werewolf]" (PoA am. ed. 173), a completely different subject as it
> would involve recognizing the werewolf in human as well as 
werewolf form."
> 

Lanval:
See above. It's not only probable but quite likely that the 
werewolf's distinguishing traits while in human form, and ways of 
killing/defending oneself, HAD been covered in homework or class at 
some time during Snape's school years prior to the OWLs.


Carol:
In DDM!Snape's view, Lupin is a very dangerous man,
> tricking Dumbledore into believing that he's "a tame werewolf" 
when in
> fact he could, through carelessness or malice, easily kill any 
student
> he encounters on a full-moon night or turn them into a werewolf. 

Lanval:
But Carol, almost every teacher at Hogwarts (and even some students 
*cough*Draco*cough*) with enough malicious intent would have the 
ability to kill someone! Think of Professor Sprout and the contents 
of her greenhouses. Think of Hagrid, and his little darling critters.
One really doesn't have to be a werewolf -- that aspect would in 
fact render it more difficult (assuming of course one would hope to 
evade capture and conviction).
I can't for the life of me see why Lupin, of all people, would 
consider killing people in werewolf form, out of malice, while 
working as a teacher at Hogwarts. How could he hide that crime from 
anyone? Surely Snape's mind would grasp that?

That would leave carelessness, and well, DD is pretty smart, isn't 
he, by giving Snape a part in preventing that?

And never mind the absolutely delicious irony of *Snape* being 
outraged over DD hiring someone with a questionable past and a 
history of dangerous activities.. :D :D :D

Carol:
The
> Wolfsbane Potion is the only precaution being taken, and Snape 
wants
> to ensure that Lupin does so. Moreover, this particular werewolf
> appears to be the ally and accomplice of Sirius Black, the 
(supposed)
> DE spy who (ostensibly) betrayed the Potters and murdered twelve
> Muggles and the "loyal" Peter Pettigrew (Snape's view of the 
situation
> at that time). 


Lanval:
Hm, there's still the question why Snape would believe Sirius to be 
a DE. Does that mean Snape believes Lupin to be working for LV as 
well? What reasons would Snape have to believe that, him being quite 
the insider on DE matters? But that's another can of worms entirely.