[HPforGrownups] Neither Harry nor his Scar is a Horcrux (Was Re: Voldemort's Age)

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 170375

Jen:
I'd say it all comes back to the prophecy. If Harry is marked
as Voldemort's equal and 'either must die at the hand of the other'
that means they should be equitable (except for the 'power the Dark
Lord knows not').

Debbie:
Ahhh, the Prophecy.  Since it is a near-certainty that the Prophecy will be
fulfilled in some manner, we should evaluate all our theories in its light.
Starting with the portion you quoted, the full excerpt reads:  ". . . and
either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the
other survives . . ."  It is the second clause the puzzles me most of all,
because obviously Harry is alive and -- at some level -- so is Voldemort.
However, Harry's life is not fully independent of Voldemort, as the scar
connection shows.  He feels emotions that re not his.  Dumbledore tells
Harry in OOP:  "On those rare occasions when we had close contact, I thought
I saw a shadow of him stir behind your eyes."  And Harry's purity of heart
does not mix well with Voldemort's evil, causing them both pain.

Jen:
As a Horcrux, Harry would be acting as an anchor
for Voldemort and keeping him from being killed but Harry wouldn't be
equal to him in this way. Sure, Voldemort's given Harry 'powers, and
a future, which have fitted [Harry] to escape him not once, but four
times so far - ...' (OOTP, 'The Lost Prophecy', p. 742, UK ed.) and
there's the blood protection, yet presumably Harry can be killed in
any number of ways other than by Voldemort's hand if he is another
Horcrux. That would render 'either must die at the hand of the
other' an untrue statement in my mind.

Debbie:
Dumbledore, in HBP ch. 23, suggests that the reason either must die at the
hand of the other is simply because Voldemort "will continue to hunt [Harry]
. . . which makes it certain, really, that -- "  I don't think it's
necessary that Harry be fully protected from death by any other hand, though
Lily's sacrifice and the blood protection provided through Petunia (neither
of which would be in place had Voldemort not gone after Harry) go pretty far
in that respect.  Dumbledore's point is that Voldemort himself drives the
fulfillment of the Prophecy.  That's how Harry got his powers, that's why
they're connected in such a way that Harry's existence is not fully
separate, and why either must die at the hand of the other.  The only part
of the Prophecy that's true independent of Voldemort is Harry's innate
purity of heart.  So, I don't think Harrycrux is inconsistent with the
Prophecy.

Jen:
Which brings me to what some will think is a very odd
conclusion....the possibility that Harry is *also* immortal right
now, anchored to Voldemort's Horcruxes because he shares part of
Voldemort's soul. And what power does Harry have that the 'Dark Lord
knows not'? The power to love, to be willing to destroy the
Horcruxes and sacrifice himself if it comes to that in order for
Voldemort to be destroyed. Voldemort *can't* do the same in order to
destroy Harry because he's never known love.

Debbie:
The answer to this question may depend on whether Voldemort's soul has
become intertwined with Voldemort's in any way.  Would Voldemort's other
Horcruxes tie Harry's soul to this earth?  I tend to think not, but I have
not given it a lot of thought.

Carol:
But in rereading CoS, I noticed that the concept of a "bit" of someone
does come up in relation to the *physical* self. Hermione tells Harry
and Ron that one of the ingredients of the Polyjuice Potion is "a bit
of whoever we want to change into."  [snip]

This use of the word "bit" with reference to part of a person isn't
proof, of course, that some physical "bit" of Voldemort, as opposed to
the not-yet introduced soul bit, is what Dumbledore concedes *may*
have entered Harry to give him Voldemort's powers, but if Voldie's
body exploded, a "bit" of his flesh and (magical) blood could have
entered the cut on Harry's forehead as easily, and perhaps more
easily, than a nontangible soul bit could have done.

Debbie:
The Polyjuice effect is very different from the transfer of powers or the
separation of the soul.  Polyjuice only causes a person to assume the
physical characteristics of a person, so it makes sense to require a
physical bit of the person.  Harry was just himself inside Crabbe's (or was
it Goyle's) body.  Fortunately, he didn't assume either their minds or their
powers, or lack thereof.

Doug:
1) *IF* there remains an ethereal connection enabling the horcruxes
to actually anchor the main soul to the earthly realm, then the soul
is not really in pieces is it? *IF* perhaps soul is source of power,
then for this purpose, the soul remains intact enough enough to hold
magical power no matter what its size, or where it is distributed.

or 2) Perhaps it is because magical powers are neither of the soul,
nor the body…

but magic is of the Mind, and requires body - and parts of the body,
most notably, opposable thumbs, to operate. Magic is Thought,
Emotion, Will Desire, Imagination, Idea… projected onto the world so
as to manifest as real.

Debbie:
I'll go with #1, and a small helping of #2.  A soul is not corporeal, but
it's easier to describe as if it were; each 'bit' of soul retains whatever
is in the soul, except that shredding a soul by acts of murder essentially
starts chipping away at whatever makes that soul human.  Magic is of the
mind, but often requires the body to aid it along.  One cannot use a wand,
or prepare a potion, without a body.  But Vapor!Mort retained his mind,
and such of his powers that did not require a body, i.e., possession.  I
read this to mean that the mind and powers remain with the soul.

Doug:
Yet if something is magically thrown so as to affect a magical action
in the world, why cannot Harry bear an imprint of Voldemort -his
soul,  as it were- and have the effect of a horcrux, have all the
power and mind based connections… yet not be a horcux, yet have a
'portion 'of his soul, and not have to die.

Debbie:
All this is magical theory (and there are more magical theories of Horcruxes
circulating this list this weekend; it's all I can do to keep up with them
all), but as I suggested above, my view is that all of an individual's
unique magical talents, i.e., whatever is programmed into their DNA, is
bound up with the person's soul. Take Riddle's diary, for example.
Diary!Riddle was much more than a mere memory.  It contained all of the
16-year-old Riddle's memories.  It could think and act for itself, which is
what led Dumbledore to conclude that it was probably a Horcrux.  And once
Riddle borrowed enough life force to escape, Diary!Riddle could perform
magic -- the same magic that Riddle himself could have performed.  He
couldn't have gotten this magic from Ginny along with her life force; it was
too advanced.

But, yes, none of this -- soul or mind -- is corporeal.

Bart:
> A horcrux spell has been described as being quite complex (far more
> complex than an AK spell, which seems to require the word and the intent
> more than fine wand movements and precise pronunciation).

Pippin:
I don't see that the horcrux spell is described as
being complex.

Did I miss something? Or is this fanon?

Debbie:
I was going to ask the same question.  I thought perhaps Bart was confusing
this with the Fidelius Charm, which is described as complex.  Slughorn says
only that there is a spell which he does not know because he hasn't tried to
make one.  For all we know the spell may be as simple as blowing the soul
bit at an object with the requisite intent.

Goddlefrood:
The second step, which
is implied from Lord Voldemort's above words is to prepare a
vessel to store the soul fragment. Oh, indeed, the vessel in
which the soul fragment is to be kept must, IMO, have some
preparation. [snip]

That he did this preparation of the vessel in diverse ways
should be clear enough, even from what we do know of the
Horcrux creating process. The Diary Horcrux acted in its
own way and I believe the other Horcruxes will too. Each
of the remaining Horcruxes will be destroyed in a different
manner and be found to have differing enchantments or bindings
on them.

The Ring Horcrux accounted for by Dumbledore, based on the
little he described of its destruction, was very unlike the
Diary. That the remaining 4, or possibly 3, will each cause
their own problems and have unalike enchantments is something
I would expect. A locket has a compartment, a cup arguably has
not, a living Horcrux container would be different again and
the other as yet undetermined Horcrux will also have its own
idiosyncracies. None will have the same protections, as far
as this reader is concerned.

Debbie:
Two points.  First, my understanding is that the Horcrux becomes embedded in
the object itself, and the object is not necessarily a container like the
locket.  Second, I agree that it's clear that each horcrux is protected in
its own unique way.  However, I read the text to mean that the enchantments
were added to protect the horcrux, and not that they are part of the
horcrux.  The ring had a terrible curse on it.  The locket had a whole
series of protections on it, and even if you could reach the locket, it
could not be opened.  On the other hand, the diary was designed to be used,
and its use did not release the soul.  If the protections (or other unique
features) could be added later, they are not part of the horcrux spell.

Mike:
But I don't think Harry has to be killed for this soul piece to be
released. It wasn't encased with the Horcrux encasing spell, so it is
only bound to this earth by the other Horcruxed soul pieces of LV.


Debbie:
I agree, but for a different reason.  Because most horcruxes are inanimate
objects, they must be destroyed to release the soul within.  Harry as a
living being, may have the power to release it himself, something he will
realize only when it becomes essential, as he realized how to destroy the
Diary.

Mike:
Any questions, see me after class :D

Debbie:
I'll be right there.


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