Werewolves and RL equivalents (was:Re: Snape - a werewolf bigot?...)

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 170413




> Magpie:
> I think there are some other reasons too. But in Lupin's case I 
have no
> trouble believing at all that he would be forced to take 
medication, and
> might be sick of being sick. Goodness, why not? His illness 
controls his
> entire life! He would hardly show it, given his personality, and 
yet in
> this scene especially Snape's even rubbing it in. Like I said, I 
don't see
> him disliking wolfsbane itself the way some people might dislike 
their
> medicine, but I think it's got more meaning for him than that.

Lanval:
I'd need more evidence for Lupin resenting the potion, still. As I 
wrote in a reply to another poster, Lupin can't be too tired of it 
yet -- it gives him, after all, the most relief he's had in years, 
and this is only the third time around he's "on" it.

That he's tired to death of the condition itself, and probably not 
to happy for having to be grateful to Snape, of all people -- *that* 
I have no trouble believing.
> 
 
> Magpie:
> I don't think she's saying he has a blase attitude in general, but 
that
> he's showing one (intentionally) to Snape. Lupin's entire part in 
the books
> revolves around doing irresponsible things. He goes running with 
the
> Marauders regularly in school, he covers up for Sirius, he forgets 
to take
> his Potion in PoA. Of course these things don't define the entire 
man if he
> were a person, but as a literary creation, if Lupin was a 
chesspiece this
> would be part of his signature move. It's not conjecture anymore 
than
> saying Sirius can be reckless. 
> 

Lanval:
Hm, I guess I just don't see that part of his personality as all 
that significant. All the kids act irresponsibly, and constantly 
endanger themselves and others (if they did not, we'd have no 
story). Teen Snape acts irresponsibly by ignoring both school rules 
and his Headmaster's judgment. He moreover invents at least one very 
dark curse, one that inflicts serious injury if not death, and uses 
it on another student, in the middle of a crowd. I don't see anyone 
claiming that being irresponsible is a hallmark of young Snape, just 
as a example.

On the other hand we must assume that Lupin dutifully *does* take 
his potion all year with one exception, where everyone involved 
seems to have forgotten the werewolf thing. We have no prior history 
of him ever acting unsafe on full moon nights as an adult, and we 
know DD *still* trusts him enough to sent him on important missions 
for the Order (including the fetch-Harry-from-Privet-Drive one), the 
last of which, going underground and having to face Greyback, being 
especially demanding, both in trustworthines and sheer bravery.

Lupin's signature negative trait, to me, is the weakness of wanting 
to be liked and accepted that JKR mentioned. Which *can* lead to him 
acting in an irresponsible way, but that's merely a possible effect, 
not the flaw itself.


> Magpie:
> I don't think the point is that he's choosing to go through the
> transformation. He is having a power play with Snape by not 
drinking the
> concoction immediately, which sets up the repitition later when he 
forgets
> it.
> 

Lanval:
But I don't how one sets up the other...? They seem to be such 
different circumstances. 


> Magpie:
> I don't see how it can be blown out of proportion. It's not like 
we're
> given back ups for Lupin while he's at Hogwarts. He's teaching at 
the
> school and controlling his condition through Wolfsbane. That's 
significant
> to the plot. Sure there are things that could be done other than
> wolfsbane--Lupin didn't have it when he went to school as a kid. 
But
> wolfsbane is important in PoA. Too much "everything's dangerous at
> Hogwarts" and the plots of every book stop mattering.
> 

Lanval:
There certainly are degrees of danger. Lupin roaming the halls in 
werewolf form presents a greater imminent danger than, say, flying a 
broom during a Quidditch practice. Both can be deadly. Yet there are 
countless kids flying around on brooms, a hundred feet or more up in 
the air, without supervision, all the time (I won't even get into 
other school-sanctioned activities involving hippogriffs, or the 
Triwizard tournament). Lupin will be dangerous on no more than ten 
or eleven entirely foreseeable occasions throughout the school year, 
and for those, precautions were taken -- the most complicated part 
I'd say involving the actual brewing (kudos to Snape for doing a 
fine job all year).

I fact, had there not been such a level of prejudice against 
werewolves, DD could have simply announced Lupin's "furry little 
secret" on the first night's feast, and that on full moon nights, 
students would be strongly advised to stay in their dorms (as an 
additional precaution on top of the potion). Just as they were 
strongly advised to stay away from the grounds after dark, due to 
the (even more deadly!) Dementors, or just as they were told to stay 
out of a certain corridor during Harry's first year, if they did not 
want to die a painful death. I don't see the big deal here. 





Yet when actual 
> Another thing I love about the Snape/Lupin scene with the Potion, 
btw, is I
> think when Snape comes in and sees Lupin with Harry that's already 
a blow
> to Snape. I mean, we know the guy lives in the past, and he hates 
having
> Lupin there. I think he saw those two together and went right into 
the same
> kind of defensiveness he had in the Pensieve scene, as if now 
there's two
> of them plotting. And he starts his own passive-aggressive attack 
on
> Lupin--which Lupin parries in the most Lupin-like way.

Lanval:
Yes, it must have been like old times, Lupin and someone looking 
just like James being chummy. I agree that's why Snape goes into 
power play mode -- as opposed to Snape fearing for Harry's safety, 
which I won't buy for a moment.

> lanva:
> I really think that had Snape not been so hostile before 
> Lupin was even hired, Lupin would have let the past be the past. 
He 
> seems to have more important matters on his mind than dwelling on 
a 
> old schoolboy grudge.
> 
> Magpie:
> I think that's true--Lupin himself says he neither likes nor 
dislikes Snape
> and I believe him. But of course Snape was going to be the first 
aggressor
> because not only is he the more emotional one but he's the one who 
feels
> slighted. The Marauders *won* and both Lupin and Snape know it. 
Even with
> the Prank Snape's still enraged and Lupin can still say it's just 
a stupid
> joke. I think Lupin handles Snape in a way that drives Snape crazy-
-and
> that's just Snape, but I think the scene with the Potion is part 
of Lupin
> struggling with Snape. It's just also setting up the later scene 
where he
> forgets the Potion.

Lanval:
That's true, even though I still don't get Snape's logic (why Lupin 
would have been "in on the attempt to murder him".)

And it's hard for me to see how the Marauders 'won' (unless you 
mean 'in Snape's mind'?) One is perceived dead, one is truly dead, 
one is in prison, and the last one is an outcast from society, poor, 
half-starved, and sickly, with a horrible condition to bear. 

Snape? Cushy job, three solid meals a day, a steady neverending 
supply of little victims to bully, brewing potions, hanging out with 
important folks like L. Malfoy, and just generally enjoying the 
privilege and recognition that being Potions Master at Hogwarts, and 
Head of Slytherin House brings with it.

Er, no contest for me there. *g*

Magpie:
> Which just fascinates me because JKR *could* have had Lupin be all 
frantic
> about taking the Potion to set up just how important it was that 
he always
> get it on time, and then in turn use that to show how shocked he 
was by
> seeing Peter (because we'd know how important it was). The scene 
she wrote
> was imo more interesting and says things a bit more interesting 
about
> Lupin. He's never just the Patron Martyr Saint of Werewolves.
> 

Lanval:
That would certainly have helped in making a better case for Lupin, 
but from a writer's perspective it would have been difficult. If 
Lupin was becoming frantic, knowing evening was near, and Snape had 
not shown up with the potion, surely he would not have stayed at his 
desk, studying the map, but gone in search of Snape? But for plot 
reasons, he had to be reasonably calm and study the map. 
We have Snape saying that Lupin had forgotten to take his potion 
*tonight* which implies that Lupin had little reason to be frantic 
just yet; Snape wasn't all that late by the time Lupin leaves his 
room, this was shortly after dinner. Of course there's the weird 
fact that the arrangement seems to have been that Snape would 
deliver the potion to Lupin, so why does he blame Lupin for having 
forgotten it? Just Snape being Snape?

Patron Martyr Saint with a debilitating illness? Nah. That's the 
stuff of sappy Victorian novels, and JKR ain't writing one of 
those. :)