[HPforGrownups] Re: Werewolves and RL equivalents

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 170477

Magpie:
<SNIP>
I disagree 
> that she *couldn't* ever show us that Dumbledore was angry at Snape-
-
> she finds ways to hint at Dumbledore's emotions about Snape when 
she 
> wants those emotions to be seen by us.

Alla:

And I am just asking you how. When did we ever see DD being angry at 
a teacher in front of the students? Not at any adult, at the teacher, 
whom DD is making a point of showing a respect in front of Harry like 
every time IMO, even if when he should not have IMO? Do you think DD 
was angry at 
Snape for stopping Occlumency lessons for example? I think he was, 
but did I ever see it in canon? Not really. I only saw DD blaming 
himself.

Magpie:
I'm saying I don't see why it matters. It's not important to the plot that
Dumbledore is angry at Snape for telling on Lupin, apparently, and if it
was I think it would be easy enough for JKR to put something in to hint at
it without having Dumbledore dress down Snape in front of Harry. Or at
least assert some authority over a Snape who's pulling stuff like this to
get the staff he wants. I've no problem with the idea that Dumbledore is
angry at Snape--maybe he completely reamed him out in private. But I don't
think he's firing Lupin because Snape forced him by telling students he was
a werewolf. Dumbledore doesn't fire people because parents write angry
letters about his choices. Certainly not without any fight at all. I can't
imagine him firing teachers because Snape puts him over a barrel.

> 
> Magpie:
> I think the only choice Snape took out of their hands was the 
choice 
> to out Lupin. It just goes totally against everything we've seen of 
> Dumbledore and even the way it's played in PoA that Dumbledore 
> wanted Lupin to stay and couldn't because of Snape. I think if that 
> were the case we would most certainly see Dumbledore angry at Snape 
> and openly wanting to find a way to bring Lupin back.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Not in front of Harry, no I do not buy it. IMO of course. Dumbledore 
after all insists on professor and sir and here Dumbledore would show 
his anger to make Harry even angrier with Snape? Not IMO.

Magpie:
I don't think Dumbledore would shave a problem showing that he was being
forced to fire Lupin and wanted and was working to get Lupin back in front
of Harry. 

Alla:

Funnily Dumbledore guards Snape's secret even more carefully. It 
tells me that had it been known that former DE teaches at school by 
general public, Dumbledore would have been just as powerless to 
protect Snape from angry parents.

Magpie:
I don't think he would have been powerless to protect him from angry
parents in terms of not firing him. I've no doubt at all that he would have
done it, or at the very least tried standing by Snape and his decision to
hire him. I don't think Ron telling the other Gryffindors that Snape was a
DE would lead to Snape packing before breakfast fleeing angry OWLS while
Dumbledore shrugs and does nothing. Not any more than Hagrid being outed as
a Half-giant led to that. Though I think of the three of them Snape would
need the least protection from angry letters. I think, more so than the
other two, he'd be defiant.

Alla:

But what Jen said I quite agree with.

Jen: 
What I meant by that is had Snape waited or not come forward
when he did, Dumbledore and Lupin would have revealed the outcome
that Lupin was leaving anyway -that's what was taken out of their
hands, the choice to present the information as they saw fit and
include the details they felt were necessary. So Snape acted
preemptively for some mystifying reason. I mean, people are arguing
he didn't do it to get Lupin fired and Snape's words had no bearing
on Lupin's job prospects or career, so why did JKR make Snape part of
the story? I don't see a purpose for him telling the students about
Lupin if it had no meaning.

Magpie:
Sure it had meaning. But I don't think the meaning was that Dumbledore
dropped or abandoned Lupin even though he wanted him as a teacher because
he bowed to public anger about werewolves. Snape's telling the secret can
have bad consequences without Dumbledore getting played by Snape's bringing
negative public opinion to him. 

Nobody even says that happened:

(From PoA)

"I was worried this mornin', mind... thought he mighta
met Professor Lupin on the grounds, but Lupin says he never ate anythin'
las' night...."

"What?" said Harry quickly.

"Blimey, haven' yeh heard?" said Hagrid, his smile fading a little. He
lowered his voice, even though there was nobody in sight. "Er -- Snape
told all the Slytherins this mornin'.... Thought everyone'd know by
now... Professor Lupin's a werewolf, see. An' he was loose on the
grounds las' night.... He's packin' now, o' course.

"He's packing?" said Harry, alarmed. "Why?"

"Leavin', isn' he?" said Hagrid, looking surprised that Harry had to
ask. "Resigned firs' thing this mornin'. Says he can't risk it happenin
again.

Magpie:
Hagrid says Snape told the Slytherins this morning that Lupin's a werewolf
and was loose on the grounds. And that he's packing now. Hagrid says he
resigned first thing, either before or after Snape told on him, and he says
he did it because he (Lupin) says he can't risk it happening again. So
Harry goes to see Lupin:

"I just saw Hagrid," said Harry. "And he said you'd resigned. It's not
true, is it?"

"I'm afraid it is," said Lupin. He started opening his desk drawers and
taking out the contents.

"Why?" said Harry. "The Ministry of Magic don't think you were helping
Sirius, do they?"

Lupin crossed to the door and closed it behind Harry.

"No. Professor Dumbledore managed to convince Fudge that I was trying to
save your lives." He sighed. "That was the final straw for Severus. I
think the loss of the Order of Merlin hit him hard. So he -- er --
accidentally let slip that I am a werewolf this morning at breakfast."

"You're not leaving just because of that!" said Harry.

Lupin smiled wryly.

"This time tomorrow, the owls will start arriving from parents.... They
will not want a werewolf teaching their children, Harry. And after last
night, I see their point. I could have bitten any of you.... That must
never happen again."

Magpie:
Lupin says nothing about Dumbledore firing him because of what Snape said,
or about Dumbledore bowing to angry parents. Seems like it's entirely
Lupin's decision to me, one that Dumbledore isn't standing in the way of. I
must say on re-reading that it fits the behavior of the two of them when
they say good-bye, actually. Because it seems to me it's Lupin who runs
away from the idea of angry parents--Lupin, who needs so badly to be liked.
It seems more like that's what Snape does to Lupin is to bring hatred down
on his head, and that's something Lupin fears. It's Lupin who pre-emptively
removes himself from office. He's leaving before the angry OWLS he already
sees in his head have arrived (though Harry and his friends certainly still
like him in this scene, especially after the wry smile and sad explanation
of Snape's actions).

Carol:
I think it's *Lupin* who makes it a big deal, implying that if it weren't
for Snape, he wouldn't have had to resign. 

Magpie:
That wry smile is well played. And upon re-reading, it seems like Snape's
hit Lupin where he lives not by getting him fired but by, Lupin
(everybody's favorite teacher!) believes, making him the target for hatred.
If you're greatest flaw is that you want to be liked, the correct response
is obvious. Snape's comment about the "weak" Patronus takes on a bit more
meaning...

Carol:
Anyway, aside from illustrating Lupin's apparent inability to admit
full responsibility for his own actions and face their consequences, I
think the reason JKR had Lupin mention Snape is simply to make Snape
look spiteful, paving the way for the seemingly evil Snape at the end
of HBP.

Magpie:
And it greys everything a bit as well. Snape gets to have a spiteful moment
he can be blamed for without the plot really turning on Snape being the
mean teacher villain who unfairly drives away the innocent nice teacher
Lupin.

Mike:
Right! And we've just come back full circle to Snape using Lupin's 
condition against him when he has no other proof of wrongdoing. 
Remember, at this time Snape does not know that Lupin had ever been a 
direct threat to the kids. If the only thing that happened that night 
was that Lupin ran around the Forbidden Forest, well, he's just one 
of many werewolves out there. But since Snape is still convinced of 
Lupin's complicity, he can feel justified in taking the bigoted 
position if it leads to *justice* in the end.

Magpie:
Yup, it does seem that Snape is obviously saying he's got this to use
against Lupin and he does.

Mike:
LOL. But of course, had Lupin only known a particular thing from 
Snape's past, I think he would have been holding the trump card.

Magpie:
LOL! And it's so Snape to probably not even think of that--I mean, in his
mind it's probably completely different. Although I don't think it would
have been a trump card, to be honest. I think Snape would be prepared to
weather the reaction to his being a DE in ways Lupin was not ready to
weather the reaction to his being a werewolf.

-m