Snape vs Lupin (was:Werewolves and RL equivalents...

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 170512

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > I'm not sure Snape's primary motive in this scene is to lord it   
> > over Lupin. Honestly, I think Snape sees Lupin as too much of a   
> > threat to engage in those sort of games (unlike Sirius in the     
> > kitchen at Grimmauld Place). He never takes his eyes off of      
> > Lupin, going so far as to actually back out of the room. So it's 
> > hard for me to think Snape is going for a petty power play.
> > <snip>
 
> >>Magpie:
> I don't think it being a power play means it can't be serious--it's 
> not like reading out Witch Weekly to Harry in class. I think the   
> school rival and threat are intertwined as they always were--James 
> didn't just beat Snape at Quidditch, he was a threat.

Betsy Hp:
Maybe back in the day, but not now.  At this point I think Snape is 
looking at the two men he thought betrayed James (and his wife and 
son) as a threat.  He's not looking at James in that light.  IOWs, 
Snape has moved on, after a fashion.  It's not a popularity contest 
to Snape now, no matter Lupin's attempts to couch it as such.

> >>Magpie:
> That school rival threat can exert a lot of influence over Snape's 
> thinking at times. It doesn't seem like a game for him but         
> something really important for him to triumph over.

Betsy Hp:
I think it stopped being a school game the moment Snape decided to 
join the Death Eaters.  IMO, the moment he called Lily a mudblood.  
What's interesting to me, is that when Snape switched sides (going 
with DDM!Snape here, of course) as far as he could tell, Lupin and 
Sirius *also* switched sides.  So, in Snape's opinion, James becomes 
a fool in that he trusts the wrong people, but James is no longer an 
enemy. (Except of course for how all stupid people are Snape's 
enemies. <g>)  

However, both Lupin and Sirius *remain* enemies.  They conspire to 
get James and Lily and Harry killed. Snape is still working against 
them as he's working against any Deatheater.  And while Snape 
probably has a sort of smug sense that he always knew they were no 
good (murderers in their boyhood, etc.) I think he definitely sees 
the current game as one of life and death.  It's spy versus spy 
here.  (Man, I'd *love* to see Snape and Lupin go head to head in 
that sort of game!)

> >>Magpie:
> It's interesting to think, though, of exactly what the threat is.   
> On one level Lupin, if he's working with Sirius, can be putting    
> Harry in danger. But it's hard for me to not feel like Snape thinks 
> he's also being ganged up on when Harry immediately seems to bond   
> with Lupin and Lupin covers up for him when he's in Hogsmeade. If   
> this puts Harry in danger, well, that's just business as usual.    
> James, too, was killed despite Snape's attempts to save him because 
> of course he thought he and his buddies would win through.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Hmm, I don't see that at all in this scene.  Not the ganged up on 
bit.  Because I honestly don't think Snape would ever expect Harry to 
be on his side.  Or even take a neutral stance.  Hence Snape not 
bothering with trying to sway Harry. In fact, I agree that Snape puts 
Harry in James's role: Harry is the fool.  Harry, like his father, 
trusts the wrong people.

But that Snape doesn't try to sway Harry, that he doesn't do anything 
to make Lupin look bad to Harry suggests, IMO, that Snape isn't too 
worried about Harry's opinion here.  What Snape is worried about, is 
keyed into, I think, is Lupin and Lupin's motives and activities.

Of course, the scene where Lupin lies about the Marauders' Map I can 
see where Snape might feel ganged up on.  But I again suspect that 
this is more from Harry's POV, who *is* looking at things from a 
schoolboy's view point.  With Snape, I think this is yet another beat 
where he feels Lupin is showing himself as standing against 
Dumbledore.  And again, Harry the fool trusts the wrong person, the 
guy giving him candy, if you will.

Where Harry's role of fool gets to be too much for Snape is the in 
the Shrieking Shack.  At that point I do grant you that Snape felt 
(and was) mightly ganged up on.

[A tiny bit of an aside here: I think Mike earlier expressed doubt 
that Snape would have felt any bad feelings towards "live and let 
live" Lupin when he had Sirius and James in his face 24/7.  On the 
contrary, I imagine young!Snape would have felt a great deal of anger 
towards the boy who assisted in his downfall but never ever got 
caught and maintained the image of a perfect little angel to 
surrouding adults.]

> >>Magpie:
> From Lupin's pov, again I don't think Snape's actions here have to 
> be petty for him to hit back passive-aggressively. I think he knows 
> that Snape thinks he's a threat--Snape says it often enough--and    
> that's what he's treating him like here. A threat who's also part   
> of a schoolboy rivalry.

Betsy Hp:
Snape definitely makes it clear that he distrusts Lupin.  And 
honestly, I wouldn't even term it passive-aggressive.  Snape is 
pretty aggressively distrustful.  Which works, because I don't think 
passive-aggressiveness is Snape's forte.  And yeah, there's 
definitely a sense of "all alone with Harry, I see?" going on too.  
Which probably also pissed Lupin off.  

And yeah, I totally agree that this is why Lupin strikes back.  Snape 
makes clear that he doesn't trust Lupin, Lupin makes clear that he 
doesn't give a crap.  It's very sweetly done. <g>

(The "showing Harry my grindylow" line is classic, IMO.  Oh, is that 
what the kids are calling it these days, Lupin?  It's like he's 
rubbing Snape's face in it.  Which shouldn't amuse the hell out of 
me, but it really, really does. <bg>  Lupin gets all the points in 
this scene.)

But, I think that while Lupin is operating on the schoolboy rivalry 
level (I don't get the sense that Lupin thought Snape an actual 
enemy) I still don't see that Snape was going there.  For Snape this 
was all about Voldemort versus Dumbledore rather than Slytherin 
versus Gryffindor or oddball versus popular boy.

Hee!  Unless of course Lupin is evil. Then he's playing at Snape's 
level and *still* trouncing him!  (Which maybe speaks against Lupin 
as villain?  JKR's villain's are never this smooth are they?)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/170477
> >>Magpie:
> <snip>
> And upon re-reading, it seems like Snape's hit Lupin where he lives 
> not by getting him fired but by, Lupin (everybody's favorite       
> teacher!) believes, making him the target for hatred. If you're    
> greatest flaw is that you want to be liked, the correct response is 
> obvious. Snape's comment about the "weak" Patronus takes on a bit   
> more meaning...

Betsy Hp:
Ooh, is Snape this smooth?  I'd love to think so...  Though I always 
fear making him too much of a bad-ass.  (I have to keep recalling his 
moments of screaming, spit-flying rage.)  Hmm, suddenly I wonder if 
the great Snape versus Lupin match would be as even as I first 
thought?  If you're correct than Snape knows Lupin's weakness, does 
Lupin know Snape's?  (Okay, yeah, I'm sure Lupin knows Snape's.  
Lupin just strikes me as the kind of guy who knows to figure that 
sort of thing out.  So good, the match is still on. <g>)

I agree with whomever said that Snape's being waiting 18 years to 
expose the truth about Lupin. And I will say that since Snape has 
been forced to confront his own demons (again, going with DDM!Snape) 
he'd have very little sympathy for anyone hiding from theirs.

I suspect that Snape agreed to keep Lupin's secret from the students 
for Dumbledore's sake, for as long, and only as long, as Lupin kept 
the werewolf bit under control. (I can so picture the scene where 
Dumbledore and Snape come to that arrangement. <g>)  Going by 
Hagrid's account it reads like Snape gathered his Slytherins together 
for a "personal safety" announcement.  Which fits with my image of 
Snape being all mother hen and protective of his Slytherins.  (I 
picture him being much more hands-on than McGonagall, though I'm not 
really sure why.  I picture Sprout being more hands-on than Flitwick 
for that matter.) 

Betsy Hp (stopping before the rambling gets too far out of hand)