Werewolves? There Wolves!

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 170532

> wynnleaf
> At the beginning of Hermione's Secret, Snape says to Fudge 
> (in the midst of other things), "Consider Minister - against
> all school rules - after all the precautions put in place for his
> protection - out-of-bounds, at night, consorting with a werewolf 
> and a murderer..."  Rather obviously, Snape told Fudge about Lupin's
> involvement.  And since Lupin said that Dumbledore had to convince
> Fudge that he (Lupin) was innocent of helping Sirius, it seems 
> pretty clear that Fudge had been told enough to think Lupin might 
> be guilty of helping Sirius.

Mike:
GAH! You are right of course. My brain was up to the transformation 
scene while my fingers were still typing a general statement. What I 
meant to say was that Fudge would have no idea when Lupin transformed 
and doesn't seem to be considering the possibility that Lupin was the 
immediate threat that the Dementors were. 

Even after the second Hospital ward scene, Fudge is all about the 
Dementors almost kissing an innocent boy. No short aside along the 
lines of, "And Dumbledore, you have a werewolf problem. I expect he 
will be shown the door?" Fudge is certainly the type to want to 
spread the blame around rather than shoulder it all himself. With the 
Dementors being his idea, I'm sure he would have loved to point out 
to Dumbledore that hiring the werewolf was his (DD's) fault.


> wynnleaf
> It's true that Fudge may not have learned of the actual 
> transformation circumstances.  But Snape would have told Fudge the 
> circumstances that led him to Lupin's office in the first place 
> (Lupin not taking the potion), and Fudge would therefore know that 
> Lupin was down at the Shrieking Shack with 3 kids about to 
> transform without the potion. 

Mike:
I read this scene as both Snape and Fudge being all about Black. At 
this point, Lupin is a side note. Fudge is grateful to Snape 
for "bringing in" Black. He's had one fiasco tonight with the 
Hippogriff escaping, but the re-capture of Black will completely wipe 
out that event. And Snape is at his smarmiest cooing to Fudge, 
downplaying his role just the right amount to make Fudge offer him an 
Order of Merlin. Snape's perspective: What a night, Black's about to 
gets his just desserts at my hand no less and I get an award on top 
of it all. Lupin who?


> wynnleaf
> Later, Sirius told Dumbledore what occurred and he'd surely have
> included the reason for Peter's escape.  So Dumbledore knew that 
> Lupin had transformed right in front of the children.

Mike:
Well yeah Dumbledore, as usual, has the more complete story. How does 
that affect Snape or Fudge?


> wynnleaf
> Fudge would have known from Snape's story that Lupin was involved in
> helping Sirius AND that Lupin had not taken his potion and been down
> there with 3 children.  Fudge, even being a bit dim, could easily
> figure out that Lupin had put kids at risk to transform in an
> unprotected state.  No, Fudge probably *didn't* know for sure that
> Lupin transformed right with the children -- unless Fudge learned 
> some of Sirius' statement which would include an explanation for how
> Pettigrew got away.

Mike:
I think you've credited Snape with talking much more about Lupin than 
I do. I also think that Fudge could give a rat's ass about where 
Lupin fit into the story at this point. And since neither of them 
know about Pettigrew and his escape, they really don't care why Lupin 
was nowhere to be found when Snape nabbed the unconscious Black. They 
understand why Black, Harry and the girl were unconscious - what more 
is there to understand? 

And after Black's escape, Snape still doesn't think about Lupin. He's 
focused on Potter and that he *must* have hand in the escape. Lupin 
is still not on Snape's nor Fudge's radar. I don't think he ever 
causes a blip for Fudge, until next year when he can throw it in 
Dumbledore's face.

<snippage>

> > 
> > Mike:
> > Snape wanted to do as much damage as he could to Lupin.
> > The morning after sees no change in Snape's position
> > vis-a-vis Lupin from the one he took in the Shack. 
> 
> wynnleaf
> Actually, we don't know that.  We have no idea when Dumbledore went
> about explaining things to Snape as regards Peter being alive. 
>  <snip>
> when Dumbledore told Snape that the Trio couldn't have been 
> involved in Sirius' escape without being in two places at once.
> Snape ceased his complaints immediately and left the room -- 
> still angry, but at that point he'd have realized that 
> Dumbledore was behind the use of the time-turner to help Sirius
> escape.  Even if you don't think Dumbledore was signaling the use of
> the time-turner to Snape, it's still quite possible that Dumbledore
> told Snape that night about Peter being alive.

Mike:
The way Snape stormed out of the room, completely pissed that 
Dumbledore had taken the Marauders side (again?), I think he's in no 
mood to listen to any of Dumbledore's explanations. And remembering 
how long Dumbledore let Hagrid stew in GoF, I'd rather doubt that DD 
called Snape to his side that night. Harry's the one that gets the 
debriefings.

I don't think Snape refocuses on Lupin until later, maybe not until 
he sees him the next morning. At that point, Lupin is all Snape has 
left. So why not reveal that secret? As Magpie said, "Your not 
getting away this time, Lupin."

It wouldn't surprise me if DD never tried to explain Sirius' 
innocence to Snape. Just as it wouldn't surprise me to discover that 
Snape *still* thought Sirius was guilty when he returns to human form 
right in front of him in GoF. It's possible that Snape thinks Sirius 
is guilty right up until the moment in the graveyard when he sees 
Pettigrew with his own eyes. He's the short, whimpering guy over 
there playing with his new silver hand.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/170512

Betsy Hp:
[A tiny bit of an aside here: I think Mike earlier expressed doubt
that Snape would have felt any bad feelings towards "live and let
live" Lupin when he had Sirius and James in his face 24/7. On the
contrary, I imagine young!Snape would have felt a great deal of anger
towards the boy who assisted in his downfall but never ever got
caught and maintained the image of a perfect little angel to
surrouding adults.]

Mike:
:D Yep, that was me. 

It's not that Snape liked Lupin or anything, he just wasn't a big 
part of what Snape went through in school, imo. Until the Prank, that 
is. 

There are two possibilities here. If Lupin's part was more than 
innocent lycanthrope getting pranked himself, then Snape had a 
legitimate beef with him. If Lupin knew nothing of Sirius' grand 
scheme (tongue in cheek here), then Snape's hatred of Lupin and fear 
of werewolves into adulthood is being overplayed by Snape, imo. 
(Assuming that Snape still fears werewolves, which I'm not so sure he 
does)

I'm not getting what "downfall" of Snape's you are refering to? Since 
we last saw him hanging in the air by his ankle, shouldn't that be an 
upfall? ;-)

One last thing. This DADA curse. Every teacher before Snape gets 
whacked to one degree or another, in the end. But at the end of  
Snape's term, Dumbledore gets whacked. Where's the justice in that? 
Just another reason for me to believe that Snape's got some serious 
comeuppance due to him.

Mike