Snape's the Rescuer - Really? WAS: Justice to Snape

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 170695

> > Alla:
> >
> > So, no love lost or not, I absolutely will blame Snape who knows 
that
> > Sirius is innocent and did not want innocent man to tell his 
story.
> >
> > If Snape knows it of course.
> >


> colebiancardi:
> 
> I am not sure what you mean by "Snape knew that Sirius was 
innocent -
> whether he learned that Peter alive earlier or now, does not 
matter,
> just that he knew..."
> 
> I have just reread those passages in PoA and there is nothing 
leading
> up to Snape's appearance in the Shack where Sirius reveals that the
> rat is Peter and all Sirius says to Snape is "the rat, look at the
> rat". As far as Snape knows, Sirius is deranged from his time in
> Azkaban - afterall, he's been there for 12 years. Scabbers isn't
> revealed as Peter until after he is knocked out cold.
> 

Lanval:
Do we know exactly how much Snape heard? We know when he makes his 
invisible entrance, but who's to say he wasn't listening at the door 
prior to that? And the revelation about Peter = Scabbers takes place 
only minutes before.

But leaving that speculation aside for now, here's what happens.

Snape's a smart guy, right? He sees Sirius, Lupin and the kids all 
talking quietly, no threat, no panic. He could tell that the kids at 
that point perceived neither Sirius nor Lupin as a great threat. 
They're listening *raptly*.

While telling his story, Lupin explains how his friends -- and that 
includes Peter! -- became Animagi. In great detail. He goes as far 
as describing Sirius's and James's animagi form as 'large', and 
Peter's as small enough to crawl under the willow branches, and 
touch the knot (a concept Snape is all to familiar with *eg*).

James, Lupin says, *was* Prongs.

Peter, Lupin says, is Wormtail. *Is*.

Snape is in the room the entire time.

He can see Sirius watching the rat, with a "horrible sort of hunger 
on his face".

When Snape elaborates on the joy of having Sirius's soul sucked, 
Sirius as good as *begs* him, "You -- you-ve got to hear me out 
[...] The rat -- look at the rat--"

Would it have KILLED Snape to listen for a moment longer? No, but 
he'd heard enough, I think. This conversation was taking a 
direction he didn't like, IMO.

I have no trouble believing he figured it out. No proof of course. 
But the possibility is there, very clearly.


> colebiancardi:
> He doesn't see Scabbers transform into Peter, nor hear Peter's 
tale,
> nor does he see Peter transform back into a rat outside. Snape has 
no
> idea about this, as far as we know(like you said)
> 
> So, if I was in Snape's shoes, I would have done the same thing
> (turned him over to the MoM). He isn't a judge or a jury; he is 
acting
> on what he knows about Sirius. Which is the same as the rest of the
> Wizarding World; Lupin thinks it about Sirius, Arthur Weasley 
thinks
> it and I would think, as DD didn't do anything to save Sirius 12 
years
> prior, that even Dumbledore thinks that about Sirius - an escaped
> murderer from Azkaban. 
> 

Lanval: 
Sure, no one can blame Snape for doing a Bad Thing legally here. 
Morally, that's another question. If we were talking about a RL fair 
justice system in a free and democratic country, Snape does 
precisely the right thing, legally and morally.

But he knows there's no trial awaiting Sirius, no hearing, nothing. 
It's back to Azkaban at best, immediate soul-sucking, a fate worse 
than death, much more likely. The latter is in fact what Snape wants 
and expects.

In my mind he has a damned responsibility as a human being to let 
Sirius have his say, no matter how much he hates him, *especially* 
since it begins to dawn on him, IMO, that Sirius HAS something 
important to say.

Much is made in Fandom of the Snape - Harry comparison, how often 
their fate, decisions, and life resemble one another. Well, here's 
one such comparison. Harry, who hated Sirius as much, if not more, 
than Snape ever did, hesitates, and listens. To. Reason. A thirteen 
year old boy can bring himself to do what a grown man cannot.

> colebiancardi:
> Now, of course, that is in Snape's shoes. If one wasn't Snape and 
did
> not have a hate-hate relationship with Sirius, one might be more
> inclined to listen to the escaped murderer while leading him up
(bound,
> of course) to the castle.
> 
> 
> But I do have to ask - where is the part where Sirius is gagged?  
And
> by Snape? 

Lanval:
It's in Snape's recounting of events to Fudge. 

PoA, Am. Ed. p.387:

"Extraordinary. And yet Black, and Harry, and the girl --"
"All unconscious by the time I reached them. I bound and gagged 
Black, naturally, conjured stretchers, and brought them all straight 
back to the castle."

End quote.

> colebiancardi:
> 
> This just goes to prove that Sirius, in his relationship with 
Snape,
> is no better or worse than Snape.  In fact, Snape is treats Sirius
> better, because at least he conjured stretchers for them, instead 
of
> the Mobilicorpus spell.


 Lanval:
Well, we can play a game of *who started it*, of course. :) Snape 
had just announced to Sirius that not only would he get him killed, 
he would moreover enjoy it. And he refused to listen to Sirius's 
plea for a minute of his time. Can't blame Sirius either for being a 
mite grumpy with Snape, and not being particularly attentive to 
Snape's head.

The tunnel is also very narrow; it would have been near impossible 
to maneuver around with a stretcher in there, or get out of the hole 
with it.

Then, as soon as they were outside Lupin transformed, and all hell 
broke lose. As for Snape, he had four unconscious people to move, 
not one, and stretchers were IMO a practical solution, not an act of 
kindness.


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>

> 
> 
> Lanval:
>  
> > The mere possibility that Lupin *might* have returned from the 
> Forest and *could* have attacked unconscious Ron, Harry, Hermione 
and
> Sirius, or that the Dementors *might* have returned, is not quite
> enough reason to pin a lifesaver badge on Snape just yet. 
Especially
> since they are IMO just an annoying extra burden to deal with for
> Snape; his main objective is to get Black to the castle. Note that 
he
> finds time to bind and gag Sirius before he loads him unto a
> stretcher. <snip>
> 
> > I'd say if anybody deserved a badge that night it's Sirius, who 
> without a doubt saved the kids, Snape and Pettigrew in a true 
fight 
> with the werewolf. <snip>
> 
> 
> Carol responds:
> No one is taking away from Sirius Black's actions in scaring away 
the
> werewolf (which Snape didn't witness) or from Harry's casting the
> Patronus to prevent himself and Black from being soul-sucked in
> crediting Snape with saving all four unconscious people. All of 
their
> actions are necessary for events to turn out as they did. 

<much snippage>
Lanval:
Renee already argued the circular argument of the time turner much 
better than I could, so I'll leave that alone for now... just want 
to add that the outcome depended on more factors than Snape 
stretchering off the kids; that was but one event in a sequence.

And one might just as well argue that Snape brought on much of the 
disaster in the first place. Had he not rushed to the Shack, who 
knows -- Lupin may have remebered his forgotten potion, Sirius 
certainly would not have been burdened with unconscious Snape...



Carol:
> If conjuring stretchers to take unconscious kids, at least one of 
them
> seriously injured, to the hospital wing rather than leaving them on
> the grounds when there's even the remotest chance of their being
> bitten by a werewolf isn't saving their lives, what is it? 

Lanval:
Ron was Stunned and had a broken leg; his life seems to have been in 
no more danger that Harry's or Hermione's. 

If a pair of dangerous pitbulls roams the neighborhood (as happened 
here just days ago, when I found myself confronted by three 
guys with stun-guns in my backyard, informing me of that fact) and 
five minutes later I spot the neighbor kids playing in the street 
(which did *not* happen), and I rush out and tell them to go indoors 
and stay there, maybe walk them home... that's ensuring their 
safety. I think I'd run into some reluctance on the part of the 
police and the newspaper, if I tried to get a lifesaver medal and my 
picture on the front page.

If, on the other hand, I run outside with a stick or a knife and 
throw myself between the dog and the kids, then that's a different 
story. I may just deserve that medal then.

Carol:
> certainly an act of mercy of some sort and protecting them from
> danger. (That he had no kind feelings for or intentions toward 
Sirius
> Black is beside the point. He thought Black was trying to murder
> Harry, remember? He took him to Fudge rather than dispatching him
> himself, which, for Snape, is an act of restraint.)
> 

Lanval:
What exactly gave Snape the impression that, during the time he 
spent listening in the Shack and afterwards, that Sirius was itching 
to murder Harry?
And we've been through the Snape-AK'ing-Sirius-on-the-spot before; 
that Snape 'restrained himself' from doing so, IMO, in no way counts 
as a moral decision. The alternative to bring him to Fudge simply 
was in Snape's better interest.