Snape's the Rescuer - Really?/Justice to Snape

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 170748

> Julie:
> I'm confused. Harry *did* witness Snape putting Sirius, Harry, 
> and Hermione on stretchers. POA page 412: As Time-turned Harry
> and Hermione watch "He [Snape] was conjuring stretchers and
> lifting the limp forms of Harry, Hermione and Black onto them.
> A fourth stretcher, no doubt bearing Ron, was already floating
> at his side. Then, wand held out in front of him, he moved
> them away toward the castle."
> 
> So do you mean something else? Or do you now think this was
> a positive moment for Snape?
> 
> Sidenote: I also just noticed that Harry and Hermione witness
> no binding and gagging of Sirius. Hmmm. Certainly Harry would
> not have ignored that if he'd witnessed it. I'm not sure if
> that means Snape only said he bound and gagged Sirius to 
> placate any fear Fudge might have because of Sirius's still
> presumed escaped-killer status, or if it was an oversight on
> JKR's part. (Poor JKR, I'm sure she had no expectation that
> her books would be picked apart word by word!)
> 
> 
Lanval:
No, I don't think she did. :)

About Snape and the binding and gagging: Harry and Hermione were 
quite far away, and couldn't even make out Ron on the stretcher, 
only assumed he was there. It was night, and they had to "peer 
around a bush". This being Snape, I must assume it only took two 
extra flicks of his wand to put the ropes and gag into place, which 
may have escaped the kids' notice.

Or Sirius may have showed signs os waking on the way to the castle, 
and Snape bound and gagged him then.

Snape mentions it to Fudge, surely the person in authority to whom 
Sirius was first delivered, being that he was in charge of the 
Dementors as well? Why lie to Fudge, who IMO was there when Sirius 
was brought in? Or am I overlooking something here?


Julie:
> Once Snape arrived at Hogwarts Sirius was under the control of
> Madame Pomphrey, then Fudge and/or Dumbledore, at which point
> he can blab his side of the story all he wants. If Snape truly
> wanted to keep Sirius from saying anything to defend himself,
> Snape would have had to Imperio Sirius or use some other
> method to shut him up or alter his memory. Which might have
> been pointless anyway, since the Trio and Lupin are certain
> to blab out everything they've heard.
> 

Lanval:
Sure, but Sirius would be dead by then.

Do we know where Sirius was brought? It was always my impression 
that he was dropped off with Fudge and the other Ministry officials 
right away, but I could be wrong.

I think the reason Snape doesn't use a Confundus Charm on the kids 
himself, or tries it (or worse, Imperio) on Sirius, is because DD 
would likely have realized it. 

Snape knowns he may not be able to fool Dumbledore, which is why he 
only harps on the kids being Confunded in front of Fudge. Once DD 
shows up, he merely mentions the "fairy tale Black planted in 
Potter's mind", which is pretty non-specific and an expression that 
could even be used in a non-magical context. DD confirms that this 
is indeed Black's story, all the while "surveying Snape closely".

The kids being Confunded is not mentioned again, except when Fudge 
calls Hermione "disturbed", which is again not very specific.

Fudge wants this embarrassing Black affair taken care of, that same 
night. Snape does too. Yet Snape must be careful. DD makes it clear 
to H&H that their testimony or Lupin's, or Black's, will not count, 
but DD has an agenda here (freeing Sirius and Bucky, not delaying 
their sentences) and urgency's the word. Snape *has* to take the 
however remote possibility into consideration that Fudge may be open 
to reason.

Julie:
> So it seems Snape bound and gagged Sirius for the same reason
> Sirius let Snape's head bang against the ceiling of the tunnel.
> Because they HATE each other, neither one being any nicer or
> more mature about it than the other. Certainly he has a valid
> reason to bind a wanted criminal, innocent protests or not, 
> and no doubt Snape didn't want to listen to those innocent 
> protests should Sirius regain consciousness, but I think it
> was mostly because he wanted to be able to give Sirius a cold
> "Who's got the upper hand NOW, Dogbreath?" smirk should Sirius
> wake up to find himself thusly bound and gagged.


Lanval:
Yes, I agree -- as far as this being a pleasant side effect for 
Snape. On the other hand, wouldn't he have enjoyed watching Black 
plead and beg some more? :)
And I don't blame him for binding Sirius, or at least I don't find 
it intriguing. It's what Sirius and Lupin did with Peter, after all.

> 
> Julie:
>some snippage>

> 
> That's not excusing Snape, BTW, but explaining his mindset.
> Just as Harry didn't and doesn't cling to believing the worst
> of Snape out of thin air, so Snape didn't cling to believing
> the worst of Sirius out of thin air. Again, not an excuse to
> ignore the facts, but at least an understandable reason. (I
> expect Harry to go through a very similar resistance to
> admitting the truth if it turns out Snape *didn't* murder 
> Dumbledore in cold blood after all. "But I KNOW Snape. I 
> KNOW he's guilty, no matter what new evidence there is!
> There's a clear and definite parellel between Snape/Sirius
> and Harry/Snape ;-)
> 

Lanval:
We're really not that far apart here -- it seems the only difference 
is that I see Snape as being a tad more rational and calculating, 
and that I don't see Snape bringing up the Confundus Charm because 
that's what he makes himself believe *must have happened*.

But I agree on Snape being pretty desperate about not being foiled 
again so close to his dream coming true. :)


> Lanval:
> > Really, to me Snape's actions, be it in the Shack when he 
screams 
> at 
> > Hermione, or in the Hospital Wing, strongly suggest Snape 
realizing 
> > that there *is* a case to be made for Sirius, that there *is* 
> > reasonable doubt concerning his guilt -- and Snape cannot let 
that 
> > happen.
> 
> Julie:
> I agree, for the reasons above. And I think this is exactly
> why Dumbledore says Snape suffered a great disappointment, and
> why Dumbledore doesn't come down harder on Snape when Snape
> goes completely over the top trying to deny the new reality
> of the situation.


Lanval:
Yes, I think so too; DD realizes that Snape truly suffers here, even 
though he knows Snape is wrong. 


>Lanval:
> The gagging part I find particularly interesting. He really, really
> wanted to shut Black up as long as he could, didn't he? If he
> was so absolutely certain of Black's guilt, why bother silencing 
him?

Montavilla47:

Maybe he wanted to make sure that the Dementors couldn't kiss
Sirius before he was presented to the authorities. :)


Lanval:
Good one. :) More of an audience that way, too.