My current opinion of Snape (Longish) / Re: Clues to Snape's Loyalties

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 170823

> Charles now:
> Actually, I think that Snape went to DD on LV's orders, and being 
the
> plotter that he is, saw a chance to rid himself of two masters by
> using the double agent role that both of them want him to play.

Magpie:
I think it's canon that he was sent by LV to work for Dumbledore and 
spy on him, it's true. But what's the emotional payoff if he just 
saw a chance to make things easier for himself? Rather than his 
having a change due to the results of the Prophecy, or always loyal 
to Voldemort for some reason, he's just been flopping back and forth 
whichever way it's convenient--even though he sided with Dumbledore 
and started spying on LV when Voldemort was stronger, and killed 
Dumbledore when it doesn't seem to have made his position bad 
instead of good--and this when he didn't have to, as far as we know, 
because LV wasn't the one who made him take the Vow! The thing about 
Peter is that he's a great little worm villain, but as a character 
he's not very compelling because of his weakness. His actions are 
always explained by the same thing: he was threatened and so did 
whatever he was told.

> > Toonmili: Ask yourself. Why would Snape, who knows he is no way
> > near as powerful as DD put his life on killing DD when Voldy
> > himself couldn't do it. Again you are assuming that Snape is
> > a seer. He had no way of knowing that DD was going to drink a
> > Goblet of Potion that would weaken him.
> > 
> Charles now:
> No, I think Snape knows that the hand-withering injury has 
weakened DD
> to the point where he can be killed. He would obviously prefer 
Draco
> to do it, so that his hands are clean of DD's blood. I do believe 
that
> Snape had told DD of the original plan to have Draco kill him, but 
not
> anything about the UV. I think LV would have ordered him to, just 
to
> see what lengths DD would go to to stay alive.

Magpie:
What I don't get is, if Snape would rather Draco kill him, why does 
he take a UV to kill Dumbledore for him? And why isn't he offering 
him anything that sounds like supportive encouragement in the scene 
that Harry overhears? Draco accuses Snape of trying to steal his 
glory imo incorrectly, but I think Draco's response does show he's 
correctly getting Snape's attitude, that he's discouraging him. LV 
has no reason to know about Snape's vow, so I assume you mean LV 
ordered Snape to tell Dumbledore about Draco trying to kill him--
that makes sense given LV's stated plan, which is that *Draco* 
should be killed for trying to kill Dumbledore, but I don't think 
that quite translates into DD going to any great lengths to stay 
alive. Draco shouldn't be any danger to him.

> Charles now: I don't see Snape as a leader either. I see him as a
> moral weakling, somewhere on the level of Pettigrew, but without 
the
> large streak of pure yellow. A great bullying git who wants to do
> anything he damn well pleases with no consequences, who thought he 
had
> found that way, but will be getting his comeuppance in book 7,
> probably from both sides. (I see anger from LV for not making 
Draco do
> the deed on the tower. "I needed a spy in the order longer, 
Severus.
> Crucio...")

Magpie:
I have to say, this sounds like the opposite of the way Snape's been 
presented as I've read him, though I don't think Harry would have 
trouble with it. It seems like Snape doesn't believe in people doing 
whatever they damn well please with no consequences--on the 
contrary, he seems to take a lot of responsibility on himself and is 
stuck with tons of consequences. Certainly he did with the UV--how 
do you reconcile somebody who's a coward who wants to get out of 
consequences willingly entering into a suicide pact when he doesn't 
have to do so? And why doesn't he make Draco do the deed on the 
Tower? If Snape wants Draco to do the deed, why doesn't he push him 
to do it?

Biff:

I don't disagree with you at all on this, but I think that we
perceive different motivations for his actions. I believe that
part of what does is almost a reflex, from years of spying and
doing what either side expects him to do. I don't necessarily
beleive that he is at a point where he acts much differently
when he is by himself than when others are present.

Magpie:
I think I understand. Snape is behaving as a professional person 
bringing people to the infirmary--but it's as a reflex so it should 
not be taken as saying anything about his character. However, my 
original point was not that Snape is putting people on stretchers 
and therefore must be a good guy. I was saying that Snape has 
throughout been a figure associated with hurting and curing, causing 
death and protecting life throughout. 

As to whether I think Snape really is just doing this by instinct 
from spying, I admit I don't agree with it any more than I agree 
with other theories where Snape's behavior is all about acting. I 
think the ultimate description of the character is going to have to 
incorporate both sides of his character, which means I don't at this 
point feel comfortable with either "Snape's really a totally good 
guy who acts bad sometimes because he's a spy" or "Snape's a totally 
bad guy who acts good sometimes because he's a spy." I think Snape 
will be revealed as on one side or the other, but both sides of him 
will remain intact imo.

I do agree that Snape acts out of Snape's own motivations and what's 
good for him--I just don't think that automatically translates into 
Snape always promoting himself. If a character is haunted by his 
past he can act in his own best interest by acting for others. If 
he's truly just motivated on what's best for him and his survival 
and wants to take actions without consequences, he shouldn't be 
taking Unbreakable Vows--especially ones where that last clause 
(that Draco will be unable to complete his task) are easily 
forseeable and in fact the whole point of LV's plan.

Biff
Actually I seem to remember, littered throughout OoP, scenes where
Harry is in Potions class and Snape empties his cauldron, sneering
at his efforts. Since his cauldron is empty, Harry gets no marks for
his attempt. I remember one of these scenes where Draco is in the
backround laughing.

Magpie:
I need to see some canon on that one--I really don't think that 
happens. Snape might sneer at his Potion, but he doesn't zap it away 
and then give him no marks for not having any. If he did that all 
the time I can't see how the one scene where Hermione cleans Harry's 
cauldron would stand out, nor Snape's nastily giving Harry a zero 
for not having a Potion.

-m