Clues to Snape's Loyalties

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 170865

vmonte:
> Fooling Dumbledore could have been as easy as tugging on his
> heartstrings – The Dark Lord, however, is another matter.

Magpie:
So Dumbledore's a complete idiot and Voldemort has a better 
understanding of human nature? I don't think so. It's not so easy to 
fool Dumbledore. It can be done, of course, but so can fooling 
Voldemort. 

vmonte:
> It is at this point that Snape has been forced off his fence, where
> he has been happy to sit and watch the world move around him.
> Snape's hand twitches and he pauses. His hesitancy shows he
> understands that he may regret this decision. But he was backed 
into
> a corner. Showing his intentions to be anything other than for the
> Dark Lord and the protection of his own, especially in front of
> Bellatrix would certainly have meant his death. I think Phineas
> Nigellus puts it best in Order of the Phoenix; "We Slytherin's are
> brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will
> always choose to save our own necks." (p494-495) This notion fits
> Snape to a "T" in two moments, the reason he makes the promise in
> the first place, and then when he finally has to kill Dumbledore.

Magpie:
How does it fit Snape to a T there at all? Snape is entering a 
suicide pact--that hardly saves his own neck. If he wanted to stay 
on the fence he should have stayed there. Refusing to take a secret 
UV under the orders of Bellatrix Lestrange is not showing his 
intentions to be something other than pro-Voldemort. A loyal DE 
could easily have refused the Vow. I think most of them would have. 
Perhaps all of them. Snape's choosing to put his neck on the line 
there, not saving it. And he's not doing it on Voldemort's orders. 
Voldemort wants Draco to kill Dumbledore (or more accurately, to die 
trying).

vmonte: 
> Throughout the novel J. K. Rowling makes certain to let you know
> that Snape has no idea what Draco's task is. I am certain that he
> did not expect the murder of Dumbledore to be a task that the Dark
> Lord would have given a child. When it becomes clear that Draco is
> too much of a child still to make up his mind to commit murder,
> Snape would rather kill than die himself. It could seem that there
> is a possibility that Snape was still working with Dumbledore and
> his death was planned. However, when we hear Slughorn's description
> of how one makes a horcrux it seems clear that this cannot be.

Magpie:
JKR does not make it clear at all that Snape has no idea what 
Draco's plan is. He seems to know perfectly well to me all along. 
Dumbledore knows too. What's more everyone knows that Voldemort is 
not giving the task of killing Dumbledore to a child. Voldemort's 
trying to get Draco killed. That he's unqualified is part of the 
point, as Snape himself knows. Also, although you may not have meant 
it, you seem to be associating not making up one's mind to be a 
murderer with being a child--I think Draco realizing he doesn't want 
to be a murderer or "is not a killer" is a step towards his being an 
adult, not a step that keeps him a child.
 
vmonte:
> To intentionally kill someone causes so much damage to your soul
> that it tears apart. It would not be in Dumbledore's character to
> ask this of Snape. 

Magpie:
It would seem that way, which is why I have no idea how Snape can be 
DDM and do that--I'll have to wait for an explanation if it's to 
come. But it's also not in Snape's character as you've described it 
here to take a UV. Why would he sit on the fence and play Dumbledore 
and Voldemort together and then randomly hop off for bit-player 
baddie Bellatrix Lestrange?

vmonte:
> "Severus
"
> The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all
> evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading.
> Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and
> hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.
> "Severus
please
"
> Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore. (Half
> Blood Prince, The Lightning Struck Tower, p595-596)
> 
> The sound of his hero and protector pleading is even more
> frightening to Harry than facing an army of bewitched corpse-
> puppets. None of this moves Snape in the slightest.

Magpie:
His look of hatred and revulsion seems to show Snape is moved. The 
question, one which Harry doesn't know the answer to either, is by 
what. Why is Dumbledore' pleading, exactly? What is he pleading with 
Snape for? Not to kill him? Why would he think he's going to kill 
him if he thinks Snape's his ally and he just walked into the room? 
Pleading to save him--that's an odd change from the cocky Dumbledore 
we saw a moment ago. Why go to pieces and plead to be saved just 
because Snape's entered the room? Why not say something 
like, "Severus, it seems we have guests..." If DD believes Snape's 
on his side, he doesn't need to plead with him to want to save him.

vmonte:
 No longer able
> to ride the fence, Snape makes the ultimate decision to ally 
himself
> with the seemingly stronger faction. A faction not led by wounded
> old men. He goes on to toy with and torment Harry as he runs for
> freedom. Mocking Harry's father as he deflects spell after spell. 
He
> shows that even after killing a weak and beaten Dumbledore that he
> can be as cruel as ever.

Magpie:
He doesn't seem cruel to Harry at all to me in that scene. He's not 
mocking Harry about his father, he's furiously spewing out his own 
anger at Harry's father--Harry's trying to use James' spells against 
him just like his father did. He also howls like a dog in a burning 
house. He sounds emotional to me.

vmonte:
 It seems clear that
> Snape has a plan for the power inside Harry, and knows and
> understands more about Harry's gifts than he is willing to let on 
to
> anyone. Up to this point Snape's motivations have been fueled by a
> want to be powerful, respected and feared. 

Magpie:
He seems to want those things, but all his actions don't seem to be 
motivated by them alone to me. I don't really see where Snape's 
doing anything to use Harry's gifts or get at any power inside him. 
In fact, it seems like he's undermined his best chances to do that 
for six years, if that's what he wanted. He should have taken some 
lessons from Diary!Tom on how one does that.

-m