Clues to Snape's Loyalties

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 170885

> >>vmonte:
> > Fooling Dumbledore could have been as easy as tugging on his
> > heartstrings – The Dark Lord, however, is another matter.

> >>Magpie:
> > So Dumbledore's a complete idiot and Voldemort has a better
> > understanding of human nature? I don't think so. It's not so easy 
> > to fool Dumbledore. It can be done, of course, but so can fooling
> > Voldemort.

> >>vmonte:
> Lol, that's not what I said. Voldemort is not a trusting man like 
> Dumbledore. It's harder to trick someone who trusts no one, right?

Betsy Hp:
Actually, it really is what you said.  You claim fooling Dumbledore 
is easy: just tug on his heart strings.  (Which totally ignores that 
big-eyed orphan, Tom Riddle, who wrapped everyone around his finger 
*except* for Dumbledore. <bg>)  So you *do* seem to be saying that 
Dumbledore is an easily manipulated fool.

And you're saying that Voldemort doesn't trust anyone.  Which ignores 
helpless baby Voldemort in Peter Pettigrew's arms. <g>  Even evil 
lords' of over have to trust sometimes.  They just don't do so easily 
or consistently.

So you really do seem to be implying that Voldemort has a deeper 
understanding of human nature and can better judge who to trust (even 
if only for short intervals) than Dumbledore.

> >>vmonte: He could not refuse the vow because Bella was ready to   
> kill him if he did not.

Betsy Hp:
Canon please! <bg>

> >>vmonte:
> I think Snape had no clue as to what Draco was supposed to do. You 
> really think that Voldemort told Snape of his plans for Draco?      
> Don't you think Snape would have been more involved with Draco's    
> plans at school if he was so trusted by Voldemort? 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I agree with Magpie that Snape knew Voldemort's plan for Draco.  I 
think the scene in Spinner's End makes that clear (though I recognize 
how others might disagree).  Snape *tried* to be more involved with 
Draco's plans at school.  It's *Draco* who mistrusted Snape, not 
Voldemort.  Draco kept Snape out.

> >>zgirnius:
> > <snip>
> The thing about bat and spider imagery is that, while they do have
> the association you name with darkness and evil, they are also     
> rather classic examples of misunderstood creatures (the claim that 
> bats are blooksuckers, for example). Which makes them a brilliant   
> choice for Snape - we see the images, but we cannot be sure which   
> way we should take them. Does Rowling use them because Snape is     
> evil, or because Snape's forbidding exterior makes people around   
> him think he is, while he actually serves a beneficial function? 
> <snip>

> >>vmonte:
> Here is the problem I have with the idea that Snape is not a person
> that's full of malice. If JKR had described Snape as being a big
> teddy bear I would assume that JKR meant that he was cute and
> snuggly.
> When a writer (correct me if I'm wrong) writes that a person is
> spider-like and bat-like, the images I should get are of someone   
> that has similar characteristics.
> Why would JKR use descriptors that aren't meant to describe?

Betsy Hp:
Um, who's trying to claim JKR is using descriptors that aren't meant 
to describe?  What zgirnius is saying (IMO, correct me if I'm wrong) 
is that the descriptors *used* are themselves ambiguous.  Like 
snakes, bats and spiders can be used in both positive and negative 
ways.

Yes, no one would think JKR used spider imagry when she was really 
going for teddy bear.  But is she using the spider imagery in a 
positive or negative fashion?  Killer or healer? Evil or good?

Which, as zgirnius points out, makes it a perfect image for our dear 
Snape.

> >>Alla:
> Well, I suppose the answer is that JKR may use those images as red
> herrings, you know?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I don't think they'll be red herrings in that they direct you in the 
wrong way.  I think the descriptors will fit, it's just what they're 
defining will become clearer, if that makes sense.

Just as, however Snape is revealed, his actions won't have changed, 
they'll just be understood differently.  Like that hexed broom scene 
in PS/SS.

Betsy Hp  (who thinks JKR may be going more for Athena's spider than 
Tolkien's)