Question about the prophecy and a thought about Ginny

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 171045

lizzyben:
> Agreed. DD is a war leader; war leaders have to make hard decisions.
<snip>

Dana:
DD is not a war leader, he is the leader of an underground fraction 
that works to *oppose* LV not to eradicate him and his DEs. 

They work against LV so he can't reach his goals but that does not 
automatically mean that DD ever used deathly force in his fight 
against the Dark Lord. And canon actually proofs the contrary. We, in 
the battles between DEs and the Order members, never see the Order 
members use unforgivable curses like the AK to win the battle. LV in 
his fight against the Order seems to only ever have lost 3 DEs and he 
did not loose them to the Order but to aurors and one he killed or 
let him be killed himself. No where in canon can you find one person 
that was killed at the hand of a Order Member (working as an Order 
Member). That should be enough proof that DD did not believe in 
fighting fire with fire and sacrificing innocent lives would still 
fall in the category. 

Sirius in GoF in his remarks about Barty Sr. specifically indicates 
that Barty giving his aurors the authority to use unforgivables, in 
their fight against the DEs, was not the way the Order fought their 
battle against LV and that this decision made Barty as bad as the DEs 
themselves. That was not what the Order was/ is about. 

lizzyben:
> In this case, DD made a decision that endangered 3 people, and saved
> the lives of thousands. He might consider that a worthy 
> justification, though it would pain him to sacrifice anybody. DD 
> has already shown a willingness to sacrifice Order members (Arthur 
> Weasely, Bode), to sacrifice Harry's happiness (Dursely's), and 
> even his own life. Why should this be any different? At the end of 
> OOTP, DD berates himself, not for hurting Harry, but for NOT 
> wanting to hurt Harry. He admitsthat he would rather see Harry 
> happy than save thousands of "nameless,faceless" people from harm - 
> and he sees this as a flaw. Those "nameless, faceless" people have 
> people who love them too & just as much right to live. His speech 
> suggests that in the past, he was able to sacrifice the few to save 
> the many - and is bothered by his inability to do so with Harry. 
> IMO, he never intended to love Harry; Harry was just supposed to be 
> a weapon against VD. But DD does love Harry, so he suffers with 
> him. 
<snip>

Dana:
I disagree with you that DD made the decision to endanger 3 people to 
save the lives of thousands because with this you want to imply that 
DD was insincere about wanting to protect the Potters once he learned 
that LV was after them. So his suggestion to James about him wanting 
to be the Potters SK was actually to make it easier to betray the 
Potters? I do not think so. DD would never sacrifice the lives of 
other people without them having a choice in the matter and him 
giving Snape the order to bring a part of the prophecy to LV would 
have taken away that choice, for the simple fact that he would not 
know beforehand who LV was going to handpick as his next worst enemy. 
DD also would never have been able to predict the outcome, not in 
relation to how LV was going to strike but also not in Lily's 
sacrifice which made Harry's survival possible. 

If LV had given the assignment to one of his DEs to kill every boy 
that was born at the end of July instead of going after the boy 
himself, then the second part of the prophecy would not have been 
fulfilled in these attacks but baby boys would still have died as a 
result. DD knowing what LV was about does not mean that he could 
predict with absolute certainty how LV was going to act. And to me 
that would be an awful big gamble with human lives just on a mere 
expectation on what LV might be going to do next. You might really 
believe that JKR meant her epitome of goodness to be such a cold-
hearted baby killer on the mere premises it might mean the end of an 
evil wizard's reign but I do not. 

DD did not sacrifice Order members for the cause as the only one that 
did not know what LV was after in OotP was Harry. Arthur as Sirius 
tells his own sons made a choice to work for the Order and that they 
did not understand that some things are worth dying for. The 
sacrifices made are by the members own choices not DD's. DD did not 
withhold information on why they needed to guard the door to the DoM. 
DD does not hold Order members at gun point and state you do as I say 
or else die. Bode did not die because DD sacrificed his life but he 
was murdered because the DEs were afraid that he could implicate them 
in what happened at the DoM. 

Everyone working for the Order does so at great personal risk, it 
never was up to DD to sacrifice any of their lives and they could 
walk a way at any time they had chosen to do so. 

What, in my opinion, DD was talking about to Harry at the end of OotP 
was what DD did AFTER LV had chosen to follow up on the prophecy and 
AFTER his attack at GH. Only then was Harry the one that would have 
the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, never before. DD made the choice 
to protect Harry not because he cared for the boy personally at that 
time but because the boy was too young to face LV and therefore 
needed to be kept away until he was ready and DD put his trust in 
Lily's blood as a sufficient way to protect Harry. But then, when 
Harry came to school, DD came to care for him deeply, he did not want 
that boy, once thought to be the only one to be able to defeat LV, to 
ever have to face him. He did not want the boy to be trained as a 
weapon against LV. He wanted to keep him from harm and let the adults 
do what they could to hold off LV. DD did not make the choice for 
Harry being the one but he also no longer whished it to be Harry, the 
prophecy was talking about. 

To me there is a big difference and DD specifically states to Harry 
that Harry has to do nothing if he chooses to walk away but that LV 
will never let it rest until Harry is death. This doesn't mean that 
DD ever thought about sacrificing Harry but only that he had a plan 
to not get emotionally involved and just train the boy till he was 
ready to fulfill the prophecy. A prophecy LV chose to act on and in 
doing so made the prophecy a true one. 

DD did not see his love for Harry as a flaw but that his love for 
Harry kept him from telling Harry about what he had a right to know. 
That it was a flaw to think he could protect Harry from hurt if he 
did not tell him the truth about why his parents died and why LV was 
after him all his life. 

lizzyben:
> Why not? Thank you for arguing this w/me, because I'm really, really
> ready to be convinced. I also hope that DD wouldn't do something 
> like this - but I can't deny that the evidence points in one 
> direction. And I'm looking for evidence that this isn't true; but 
> simply saying that "DD wouldn't do that" doesn't seem like real 
> evidence. If there's anything we've learned in the HP novels, it's 
> that you can't trust first impressions, or reputation, or even how 
> nice or warm-hearted someone seems - because the truth is likely to 
> be quite different.
<snip>

Dana:
What evidence? That DD had a plan to train Harry until he was ready 
to face LV? Because that was DD's plan, never did canon ever indicate 
that DD let the prophecy leak so the Order or the WW would have a 
ready weapon to defeat the Dark Lord. That is just mere 
interpretation of canon by some readers that DD would be capable of 
doing so. But it would actually make the whole story about Peter's 
betrayal, LV's choice, Snape (to me still so-called) remorse, Lily's 
sacrifice and DD's own promise to never lie become mere story fillers 
because actually it had been planned from the beginning and DD lied 
through all 6 books until he saw green in the face. 

And the remarks DD makes about it being our choices that make us who 
we are, would just be an empty gimmick because essentially he took 
away the choices of everyone involved in the story. To think that JKR 
wrote her epitome of goodness to be a cold-hearted calculated 
controller that did not care how many innocent people died to reach 
his goal, is to me missing the essence of the story in the fight 
between good and evil. Because wouldn't DD's fight be exactly the 
same as that of LV's? Would it then  not only be all about power? Why 
did DD then not take the job as MoM? He could have all the power he 
ever wanted and even have more people at his disposal. 

DD never sacrificed anyone in canon and him asking Snape to kill him 
on the tower is not canon either but just a theory of why Snape 
killed the only man that trusted him and the same goes for Snape 
taking the vow. It is also not canon that DD was dying anyway and 
therefore Snape killing him was actually not really an act of evil on 
Snape's part. 

Canon never states anywhere that DD approved of having people killed 
for the cause. He might accept other people acting in this way 
because they were allowed to use deathly force by their employer but 
that doesn't mean that he accepted, the people working under him to 
act in the same way and testimonies of people working under him 
actually contradicts this view. I saw someone mention that DD 
accepted Moody's killings of people but Moody did not kill as an 
Order member but as an auror under MoM jurisdiction and always 
brought in DEs alive if he could help it. 

What you are referring to with things not seeming to be as they seem 
at first glance does not mean that all the books in their entire will 
be turned upside down in DH and that DD will be the one that betrayed 
everyone in his evil plan to take out LV. If DD as a character can't 
be believed through out the entire books and not merely him making 
one crucial mistake in believing someone to be trustworthy while that 
person did not live up to that trust as canon stands now, then 
nothing you have red in the books can be taken as truth. Peter is 
probably a spy for the Order too and he tricked Sirius in giving him 
the SK job so he could on DD's orders betray the secret to LV. So 
James, Lily died not because some evil overlord killed them but it 
was all part of DD's plans to have them killed so LV would meet his 
match some day with their only son. 

Lily's sacrifice was not something that happened by chance but was a 
premeditated act and so was Peter's betrayal. James and Sirius lives 
were both ruined for the cause without them knowing they were going 
to be sacrificed. Makes Snape's actions in the shack and later in the 
hospital wing even more nauseating then it already was because 
everything was planned from the start and he brought the prophecy to 
LV on purpose to have LV hunt down a baby boy so that baby boy could 
one day defeat him and protecting the Potters had all been an act to 
make sure LV chose them. Peter's betrayal was not an act of evil to 
safe his own sorry ass but actually part of the plan to have LV mark 
the baby boy as his equal. 

Sorry but if this will be the resolution of the series then I for one 
will be very sorry to have financially supported a psychopathic 
author. Luckily I am very sure that this will never be. Harry will 
not learn that DD set it all up so he would be marked as LV's equal 
and end up as an orphan, who could have had a great godfather but 
sorry for him he needed to be taken care of as well or else he would 
have messed up the plan. 

lizzyben:
> So, you're agreeing that Trewlawney had already finished the 
> prophecy when Snape was found? If Snape heard the full prophecy, 
> why didn't he report the whole thing to VD? If Snape was using 
> Occlumency, wouldn't he have pretended not to have heard any of the 
> prophecy, instead of admitting to hearing the first half? Even if 
> 20-year-old Snape managed to out-Occlude DD, that still doesn't 
> explain why DD allowed Snape to leave w/the first half of the 
> prophecy. And there is another contradiction 
<snip>

Dana:
It is canon that DD states he would never lie to Harry and that 
should be enough evidence that DD did not tell a lie to Harry about 
Snape and what DD believed Snape heard. Also why would Snape only 
tell LV about the prophecy in part? Would that make Snape look 
better? I think not because then he kept LV from the part that would 
have prevented LV from waiting and learning more about why this boy 
would become the one who could defeat him. It might actually have 
prevented LV from ever acting on this prophecy because knowing it all 
would probably have caused LV never to act on it at all because not 
acting would have prevented this kid to be marked as his equal and 
thus the kid never becoming the one with the power to vanquish the 
Dark Lord. 

So in other words if Snape made the active choice to not tell LV all 
that he heard because he wanted LV to meet his end then he was 
willingly sacrificing the lives of the people LV would pick. That 
again just like I stated above could never be considered an act of 
good but falls under the same category as LV himself likes to fight 
to reach his goals and thus would be an act of evil. To me believing 
that Snape would have done a good thing for the WW by bringing only 
part of the prophecy so it was a sure thing LV was going to act on 
it, as in Snape planning to get rid of LV in this way, is having a 
serious mix up in moral values. 

You cannot use innocent people's lives just so you yourself can sleep 
better at night. Who died and made you god to decide that their lives 
are meaningless in light of the bigger picture? You can only decide 
this about your own life if it is worth giving it up for the greater 
good but you can never ever make a decision for someone else to do 
so. In RL Presidents might make these decisions every day and not 
lose one night sleep over who dies and who lives but that does not 
make it okay. The people fighting for their cause are still human 
beings that have to live with themselves killing other human beings 
and most of them never recover from this. For some it is easier 
because their canon meat never came close enough to actually be 
recognized as human beings but this still does not make it okay. And 
to me it is therefore not okay that Snape only got remorse about what 
he had done when the people it involved suddenly got faces and names 
he knew because no one should only have these moral values when their 
personal emotions come into play they should always be there 
regardless if you know them personally or not. 

To me Snape's actions and his so-called remorse are therefore totally 
false because he himself could after 20 years still not let bygone be 
bygones because he was tricked in doing something that could have 
gotten him killed and yet he expects everyone to forgive him 
instantly because he got remorse about knowing the people LV was 
planning to kill and actually did kill and if he told only part of 
what he actually heard then he tricked LV in to doing something that 
could have gotten him killed at the coast of a young boy and his 
family and their friends. 

Don't do to others what you do not want other to do upon you. 

JMHO

Dana