[HPforGrownups] UVs (was: Re: On the trivial and the profound.

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 165694

 Ceridwen:
> When Snape agrees to take the UV, Narcissa has only iterated two
> points, neither of which has anything to do with killing Dumbledore
> except in the most remote way.
>
> Tangent: Watching over and protecting Draco, and helping him, doesn't
> necessarily mean what Narcissa thinks it means.  That's a problem
> with all this mystical stuff.  You can pray for a promotion at work,
> meaning no harm to anyone, only good things.  Maybe retirement, or
> even promotions all around.  You do get the promotion, but because
> the person who held that position unexpectedly died.  This wasn't
> your intention at all, but it's the way your prayer was fulfilled.
>
> Back on track:  Snape agrees to the first two clauses before joining
> hands with Narcissa.  IF the UV is binding from that point on, then
> Narcissa played a dirty trick on Snape by throwing in that last
> clause.  He could not have gotten out of it at that point, IF the UV
> takes charge from the joining of hands onward.  A mother afraid for
> her son's life would understandably do whatever it takes to save her
> son, so I can completely see Sneaky!Narcissa's reasoning here.  But
> she played Snape unfairly after invoking such long-term friendship,
> being Draco's favorite teacher, and so on.
>
> So, it's possible, given a certain interpretation of the UV, that
> Snape would not have thought a bit about Dumbledore actually dying by
> his or Draco's hand at this point, since Narcissa didn't tell him
> about a third clause.  Dumbledore's death and the war effort wouldn't
> have come into his thoughts at all.  Now, given a different
> interpretation of the UV, that Snape could have refused the third
> clause, then yes, I can agree with you that it was not Snape's place
> to decide Dumbledore's importance in the overall scheme of things.
> I'm just talking from my own idea of the UV.

Magpie:
I understand what you're saying here, but to go off on my own tangent, the 
problem I have with this "once the Vow starts Snape can't back out" is that 
that's not an Unbreakable Vow. That's Imperius. Snape was just forced into 
something that makes him kill Dumbleodre when it wasn't his intention. It's 
a huge difference compared to a Vow where Snape is making a promise to do 
something himself.

I suppose I might say that's also why I don't lean towards the Vow forcing 
you to do fulfill it--the point of a Vow, to me, is the promise. Even if 
circumstances turn out to put you in a situation where you fulfill the Vow 
when you didn't intend to, you're still doing it in some way.

Plus I guess to me Snape doesn't seem to be being forced here. His hand 
twitches, indicating a reaction to the surprise clause. Earlier I had said 
it wasn't a surprise, and to clarify what I meant, I do agree that Snape has 
before the Vow agreed to protect Draco only. I meant it's not a total 
surprise because Narcissa has brought up this possibility already, so it's 
no surprise to Snape that she wants him to do this. Only I think if he 
really had no intention of making that fatal Vow and she trapped him into it 
we'd get something besides just a twitch. That, to me, read more like Snape 
showing that he really didn't want to take this Vow, but was mastering 
himself--though of course that was just how it read to me. It's ambiguous 
and I could be wrong.

It seems like often it's suggested that Snape also couldn't show that he was 
upset with that last Vow (if he was forced into it) because that would 
somehow make him seem less loyal, but it seems to me that if ESE!Snape (real 
or pretended by DDM!Snape) had been tricked that way he could show anger and 
show that he didn't want to take that part of the Vow. After all, he's 
already refused it.

But on the most basic level it's the Vow vs. Imperius thing, like I said.  A 
Vow is a Vow. A sacred promise. Even if Snape doesn't really want to do what 
he's Vowing to do, I feel like it has to be something he decides to do 
himself. As to why he does this...there, I've no clue. Can't completely 
understand it yet from DDM!Snape perspective, and it makes even less sense 
for ESE!Snape because why on earth is he risking his life? Especially for 
this? The scene on the Tower reads more to me like DDM!Snape (with the 
pleading as soon as he arrives and no moment where Dumbledore realizes he's 
been wrong), but I'm going to have to wait and be told exactly what was 
going on.

-m