CHAPDISC: HBP30, The White Tomb

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 165722

---  "a_svirn" <a_svirn at ...> wrote:
>
> ...
> 
> CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: 
> Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, 
> Chapter 30, The White Tomb
>  
>  
> ...
> 
> Questions:
>  
> 1a. Do you find the Patil Twins' and Seamus' parents' 
> attitude reasonable or overprotective? 

bboyminn:

No, it seems pretty normal to me, I would expect the
same thing to happen if similar events occurred at a
muggle school. Yes, they are being overprotective, but
that is a reasonable thing for parents to be.

> 1b. Although the school has been penetrated by death 
> eaters there is no mention of extra security measures
> taken or Aurors posted. Do you suppose there weren't 
> any? 

bboyminn:

I think there is a low sense of immediate danger at the
school. If the DE's had wanted to take over the school
there would have been more of them, and they would have
had more specific objectives. It seems reasonable that
they came for one task only, and that was to kill 
Dumbledore. Having succeeded, there was no immediate 
need to stay at the school, nor an immediate need to
attack the school again.

That said, I'm sure there were precautions taken that
we, through Harry, were simply not aware of. Remember
the Minister of Magic and many other dignitaries are
at the school. There would be reasonable security if
for no other reason than just their presence. 

Further, with all the hints in all the books about how
Voldemort never dared take over the school because
Dumbledore was there, with Dumbledore gone, I can't 
imagine that later, there won't be an attempt, and
probably successful, to take over the school. It is 
a target that is just too strategically important.
He who holds the school, holds the wizard world.


> 2.	What do you think of Bill's part-transformation? 
> Do you find it sinister? 

bboyminn:

No, I don't think Bill's currents state is of any
significants. He has his physical injuries and 
certainly the full moon will affect his moods, but
he is not a werewolf and is not a danger to anyone.
He will just have some annoying wounds for the rest
of his life, but beyond that he is normal.


> 3.What do you make of Harry's mood at the beginning 
> of the chapter? Is his apathy a way to cope with the
> shock of Dumbledore's death, or was he damaged 
> irrevocably in some ways? 

bboyminn:

I think it is pretty normal, especially for a emotionally
reserved person like Harry. Books and movies have made 
out death to be the /outwardly/ tramatic and emotional
event. But really, life goes on; the Bills come, the 
mortgage is due, work begins on Monday, laudry must
be done as well. As much as we most desperately want
the world to stop so we can either wallow in or 
completely ignore out pain, the clock keeps ticking and
life keeps moving forward despite our best resistance.

I would hardly call Harry reaction 'apathy' though. Stoic,
contained, reserved might be better terms. The death 
does affect Harry, but he doesn't let it show, just like
for the most part each of us holds our pain inside when
a loved one dies. Yet, in that critical moment during
Dumbledore's funeral, when he is faced with the Merepeople
and the Centaurs, and seeing Hagrid's grief has he carries
Dumbledoore body to the table, the full impact hits Harry,
and he breaks down crying with grief. 

We can all resist the pain in the dull routine moments, 
but in those moment when we speak or think fondly of the 
dead, the true impact hit us in the most painful way. 
None the less, try are we might, life goes on.

> 4a. ... Is Harry right in thinking that Snape followed 
> the same pattern as Voldemort? 

bboyminn:

I think Harry is /right/ in thinking it, but that doesn't 
mean it's true. Harry has a very low opinion of Snape in
the moment, an opinion that based on his current 
knowledge is perfectly justified. Yet, we the readers
will only know the truth, when the last book is read.

> 4b. Does proclaiming oneself a Half-Blood Prince mean
> renouncing one's muggle heritage? 

bboyminn:

I don't think it is so much renouncing his muggle heritage
as it is embracing his wizarding heritage. Notice he 
doesn't call himself the 'Half-Blood Snape'. By being the
Half-Blood /Prince/, he is acknowledging and embracing
his mother's wizarding blood. 


> 5. Do you agree with Hermione that Snape held his 
> peace about the book only because by exposing Harry he
> would inevitably expose himself? 

bboyminn:

That is certainly part of it, but I don't think to the
extent that Harry believes it so. Harry has always been
allowed special priviledges, but in subtle behind the
scenes ways. Harry is still regularly threatened with
and recieves punishment for his actions. But I think
both Dumbledore and Snape know that Harry must be 
given some room to grow and act. Harry must learn to
be a leader, to take initiative, because, if he is to
defeat Voldemort, he absolutely can't do it by sitting
back waiting for other to tell him what to do. 

Whether he is right or wrong, he must be allowed to 
take initiative, make decisions, and act on his 
decision. That is the only way he can have what it
takes to win. In this sense I am very much reminded of
Ender Wiggin in 'Enders Game'. He had to know that in
the end, it all fell on his shoulders. When the critical
moment of life-and-death came, he must be totally self
reliant. No one would, should, or could come to his 
rescue. 

> 6. Why does Hermione object to the word "evil"? 
> Why is she being so guarded? 

bboyminn:

I don't think she is so much defending Snape as she is
defending the book. The books itself was an accumulation
of information, neither good nor evil. Though it did
say something about the character and nature of Snape.

On one hand, though it is a stretch under the 
circumstance, I'm not sure the Hermione is convinced 
that Dumbledore was wrong about Snape. At this stage
she is torn, on one hand, Snape killed Dumbledore, but
that happened under very unusual and specific 
circumstances. We know that Dumbledore trusted Snape, 
yet we also no that Snape killed Dumbledore. I think that
leaves Hermione in a state of subconscious confusion and
uncertainty. 

Consciously, she is with Harry in hating Snape's action,
but unconsciously, she has doubts.


> 7. ... The chapter is about a funeral, but what kind 
> of funeral is this? A Christian funeral? A secular one?
> Something else? ...


bboyminn:

I think JKR as an author is making a point of avoiding 
the whole religious issue, partly because, rather than 
make her books non-religious, it makes her books omni-
religoius. That is encompassing the nature of all 
religions. 

I think the funeral is not so much a religious ceremony
as it is a memorial service. It is a non-religious
rememberance and and respectfull acknowledgement of the 
the newly departed's life and death.

> 8. We are specifically told that this is the first 
> funeral Harry has ever attended. Can we judge of the 
> death rites in the Potterverse by this ceremony? ...
> Do wizards usually bury their dead or do they usually
> cremate them?  

bboyminn:

I think we can judge memorial services in general by 
what we see, but religious is not an aspect of it.
As too buried or cremated, I think social conditions
dictate that more than anything. Places where cremation
is common are places with either poor sanitation or 
minimum available land. In the great north central 
plains we have plenty of land to bury people, but in 
the south like Key West, New Orleans, and Florida the
nature and availablity of land makes it rare, expensive,
and hard to maintain, there cremation is more common. 

I really don't think cremation vs burial is an issue we
need to worry about. It is whatever the social custom 
and physical circumstances dictate.

> 9. Did the funeral go as planned? ... And another thing,
> did it ignite all by itself, or did somebody set fire 
>to it? 

bboyminn:

I think it went according the plan of those who were 
truly in charge and according to the wishes of Dumbledore.
Those who were mere observes were rightly startled by 
what they may have seen. Also, at services like this, I
find it common for people to be on edge, so emotional
shock affect them more noticably.

I suspect, that the Smoke and Flame prior to Dumbledore
being entombed was part of the process, either a conscious
real time act or a present magical event. Either way it
was deliberate. Much the same as lowering a coffin into
the ground.


> 10....  What about that white smoke taking the shape 
> of a phoenix? Was it Fawkes? Was it the essence of 
> Dumbledore, for want of a better word? 
> Or something (-one) else? 

bboyminn:

I think it was symbolic of Dumbledore, but I reject all
notions that it was Dumbledore himself making a magical
escape. Nor was it an animagus or partonus. Dead people 
don't send out partonuses, nor do the transform into 
animals. I think it was simply symbolic of Dumbledore's
spirit moving on to the other side.

> 11. ... Virtually everyone came to pay their respects
> to Dumbledore, .... Yet there were few conspicuous 
> absences. Goblins did not come, and no mention has 
> been made about house-elves. Do you think that is 
> significant? 

bboyminn:

Only in that it is a reflection of the wizard world. 
Goblins don't associate themselves with the affairs of 
wizard. Though they may have respected Dumbledore, he
was no one of them, and they were not one of his kind.
So, it doesn't surprise me that they weren't there.

As to the House-Elves, they are typically never seen.
They also don't involve themselves in the /outward/ 
affairs of wizards. Yet, they certainly greatly respected
Dumbledore. He probably treated them kinder than anyone
they had ever met. But still it is not their place to 
stand along side wizards in anything. Yet we do not 
know that they were not there far in the background, out
of Harry frame of reference. We also don't know that
they did not grieve for Dumbledore in their own private
and special way.


> 12. From what Scrimgeour let slip, one might conclude
> that some kind of investigation is going on. Can the 
> captured death eater be of  any use in book 7? 

bboyminn:

I'm sure there is an investigation going on, but sadly,
I suspect it is like everything the Ministry does, it
is much much more about show than it is about results,
consequently, I don't expect much results from the
captured Death Eaters.

Harry or one of his associates might find some way
to get something usefull out of them, but I think the
Ministry will put all it's emphasis on how THEY captured
Death Eaters, and will let it go at that. 


> 13. Why is Scrimgeour so adamant about Stan Shunpike's
> fate? Surely his release is a small price to pay for 
> Harry's cooperation? 

bboyminn:

As I've implied, it is much more about preception and 
image than it is about results. Having someone in jail,
especially when they only have a very very few people in
jail, is better than admitting that everyone they caught
is innocent. They already look bad for having so few, if
it got out that those few were innocent, they would be a
disgrace. Better to be bad, than to look bad. 

Though I can't say it WILL happen, I have this fantasy
of Harry turning the tables on the Ministry. Essentially
going to the Minister and saying either you cooperate
with ME (Harry) or I will ruin you in the court of public
opinion, just as I ruined Fudge. In a sense, Harry will 
blackmail the Ministry into doing his bidding. Into 
lending him what every resources he needs - no questions
asked. I can hear Harry telling the Minister, you (the 
Minister) will give me every bit of information you have
and make every resource available to me, and I in return
will tell you what I think you need to know when I think
you need to know it.


> 14a. There is something odd about the way Ginny accepts
> Harry's decision, while Ron and Hermione refuse to do
> so. 

bboyminn:

Ginny accepts and understands what Harry says, but that
doesn't mean she accepts his decision. Harry's 
relationship with Ginny is far different than his 
relationship with Ron and Hermione. There is a difference
between friends and lovers. Friends can take care of
themselves, but one feels the need to protect a lover.


> 14b. Even stranger, Harry does not really attempt to 
> talk them out of sharing his destiny. ... Does it mean
> that for Harry .. friendship is something infinitely 
> more important than love? Even so, Ginny is not just a
> girlfriend; she is a friend as well. 


bboyminn:

As Ron and Herione say to Harry, long ago they had the
option of sticking with Harry or getting out, they 
chose to stay by his side. Harry understands and respects
that.

With regard to Ginny, no matter how much she may be his
friend, more than that, and irrevocable, she is his 
girlfriend, once that line is crossed, it can never be
uncrossed.

Still, we don't know that Ginny has agreed to stay out
of it. She accepted what Harry said, she understood his
reasons for saying it, but we don't know that she is
going to comply.

> 15.... The phoenix lament, the anthem, and the central
> episode with the funeral fire. Is this supposed to be a
> clue to the relationship between Fawkes and Dumbledore? 
> 

bboyminn:

I think it symbolizes the relationship between Fawkes and
Dumbledore, and the 'phoenix' aspect of the story my not
be over yet, but I don't think it is a clue in the sense
that most fans are trying to make it a clue.

Hey, it's just a thought.

Steve/bboyminn